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R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom

I am not "wanting" anything other than for you to explain yourself.

So it seems like you are saying that, after they die, good people end up being tortured for eternity merely for not having been convinced that any gods exist. Is that correct? Furthermore, you are absolving God by essentially "blaming the victim" - claiming that the victim "chose" to go to Hell. That's patently absurd! If someone neither believes in Heaven nor Hell, then how can they "choose" to go to either place???? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Also, didn't God himself create and design everything? Didn't he knowingly design a system of reward and punishment - of Heaven and Hell? Isn't that how he WANTS it? To say that God gets no blame for the place he created and which operates according to his will is equally absurd.

Also, you have previously indicated that lifelong rapists and murderers get rewarded with eternal bliss for merely aligning themselves with the right God at their time of death. Is that correct?

Now stop and think about that. Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God? Can you think of better ways to handle good people who merely didn't believe than by torturing them for eternity? What does eternal torture accomplish? Right about now isn't your head spinning with all kinds of cognitive dissonance? Don't you agree that all my points are valid, but yet you are searching for ways to rationalize the "biblical" view? And I'm sure you will. Maybe you will resort to a bible verse, or perhaps you will just shrug your shoulders and say, "God works in mysterious ways and we just have to have faith in him". But you, Tom, are a decent person and you know in your heart of hearts that YOU wouldn't actually torture good people for eternity for mere disbelief. And if you wouldn't do it, then maybe an all-loving god wouldn't do it either. And perhaps there are no gods - Greek, Roman, or otherwise. Maybe the universe just IS. That seems to be how it operates. We see random good and random bad, with no real rhyme or reason. Something to think about anyway.
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Channeling Jackie Gleason.

LOL!! Smile

Ron


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom


I am not "wanting" anything other than for you to explain yourself.

So it seems like you are saying that, after they die, good people end up being tortured for eternity merely for not having been convinced that any gods exist. Is that correct? Furthermore, you are absolving God by essentially "blaming the victim" - claiming that the victim "chose" to go to Hell. That's patently absurd! If someone neither believes in Heaven nor Hell, then how can they "choose" to go to either place???? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Also, didn't God himself create and design everything? Didn't he knowingly design a system of reward and punishment - of Heaven and Hell? Isn't that how he WANTS it? To say that God gets no blame for the place he created and which operates according to his will is equally absurd.

Also, you have previously indicated that lifelong rapists and murderers get rewarded with eternal bliss for merely aligning themselves with the right God at their time of death. Is that correct?

Now stop and think about that. Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God? Can you think of better ways to handle good people who merely didn't believe than by torturing them for eternity? What does eternal torture accomplish? Right about now isn't your head spinning with all kinds of cognitive dissonance? Don't you agree that all my points are valid, but yet you are searching for ways to rationalize the "biblical" view? And I'm sure you will. Maybe you will resort to a bible verse, or perhaps you will just shrug your shoulders and say, "God works in mysterious ways and we just have to have faith in him". But you, Tom, are a decent person and you know in your heart of hearts that YOU wouldn't actually torture good people for eternity for mere disbelief. And if you wouldn't do it, then maybe an all-loving god wouldn't do it either. And perhaps there are no gods - Greek, Roman, or otherwise. Maybe the universe just IS. That seems to be how it operates. We see random good and random bad, with no real rhyme or reason. Something to think about anyway.


Ron


If I might ask.

Are you asking that if someone follows the 10 commandments but just does not believe in God what will happen to their immortal soul? Is that the question?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
Ron, my hat is off to you sir. I rarely find people willing to be good and do good just for the sake of "The right thing to do." You have my thanks.


You've definitely been hanging out with the wrong atheists and agnostics. Probably the wrong Christians, too, if your moral behavior done just so you can get into heaven.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Money was the first thing god created and then he created you because he needed some sucker to believe in it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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While you barter for your food and Internet service with beads?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and beads of sweat.

And for this, you offer me dirty paper?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
stoneunhinged
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Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead!
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead!


Image
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
kambiz
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, landmark wrote:
I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters.



I don't think that the question lies in the "source" of morality.

"Do unto others..." may or may not have come from a supernatural source, but is lacking in society today is a foresight or knowledge as to what it actually means to do unto others as you would have done to yourself. It is lacking because it implies that there is no further effect than JUST on those party to the "doing".

When I offer someone to come with me on a casino binge, I'm doing unto him/her as I would do unto myself. We have a good time, friendly evening of entertainment, but what effect on their family?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom


I am not "wanting" anything other than for you to explain yourself.

So it seems like you are saying that, after they die, good people end up being tortured for eternity merely for not having been convinced that any gods exist. Is that correct? Furthermore, you are absolving God by essentially "blaming the victim" - claiming that the victim "chose" to go to Hell. That's patently absurd! If someone neither believes in Heaven nor Hell, then how can they "choose" to go to either place???? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Also, didn't God himself create and design everything? Didn't he knowingly design a system of reward and punishment - of Heaven and Hell? Isn't that how he WANTS it? To say that God gets no blame for the place he created and which operates according to his will is equally absurd.

Also, you have previously indicated that lifelong rapists and murderers get rewarded with eternal bliss for merely aligning themselves with the right God at their time of death. Is that correct?

Now stop and think about that. Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God? Can you think of better ways to handle good people who merely didn't believe than by torturing them for eternity? What does eternal torture accomplish? Right about now isn't your head spinning with all kinds of cognitive dissonance? Don't you agree that all my points are valid, but yet you are searching for ways to rationalize the "biblical" view? And I'm sure you will. Maybe you will resort to a bible verse, or perhaps you will just shrug your shoulders and say, "God works in mysterious ways and we just have to have faith in him". But you, Tom, are a decent person and you know in your heart of hearts that YOU wouldn't actually torture good people for eternity for mere disbelief. And if you wouldn't do it, then maybe an all-loving god wouldn't do it either. And perhaps there are no gods - Greek, Roman, or otherwise. Maybe the universe just IS. That seems to be how it operates. We see random good and random bad, with no real rhyme or reason. Something to think about anyway.


Ron


If I might ask.

Are you asking that if someone follows the 10 commandments but just does not believe in God what will happen to their immortal soul? Is that the question?


My question to Tom was:

"And what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
mastermindreader
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Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

Quote:
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...”


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/......062.html
NYCTwister
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On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:
Quote:
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/......062.html

So of what use is the religion, with all the trappings?

Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:

I don't think that the question lies in the "source" of morality.

"Do unto others..." may or may not have come from a supernatural source, but is lacking in society today is a foresight or knowledge as to what it actually means to do unto others as you would have done to yourself. It is lacking because it implies that there is no further effect than JUST on those party to the "doing".


What does it actually mean? What further effect?
If you seek the benevolent for yourself, and do it unto others, then a virtuos circle is produced and all boats rise.
If you seek the opposite then you have a mental defect.
If you do the opposite of what you want for yourself, assuming you want the good, then you are evil, and justice SHOULD take care of you.

Quote:
When I offer someone to come with me on a casino binge, I'm doing unto him/her as I would do unto myself. We have a good time, friendly evening of entertainment, but what effect on their family?

Kam

First of all, why are you going on a casino "binge"? Where is your legendary self-control?

Second of all, if you are having a good time and an evening of entertainment, and you and your friend can afford it, then what is the effect (assuming harm in this context)?

Admit it Kam, you are making a case for the need for divine guidance, as you've admitted you need, lest you run amok.

Landmarks original point is, as I see it, is that "Do unto others" is a starting point in defining a proper morality, and that no supernatural being is neccessary to discover it.
It can be learned, as all things can, through experience, and it can be taught by those "betters" among us who seek the good for all by wanting it for themselves.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.



Tom


I personally have problems with; "Ah, Mahati Ghandi. You did wonderful work, you led your people to freedom through non-violence and peaceful means. But you chose NOT to believe in ME or in the divinity of my Son and so therefore you are denied everlasting life."
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
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Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom


So you should base your actions on conjecture instead of your own absolute knowledge?

Wouldn't it be better to treat them well, assuming of course that you want to be treated well. That way you avoid the guesswork and probable errors, no?

What if your visualization leads you to believe they do not want to be treated well? What if you run into a masochist?

Just curious.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:
Quote:
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/......062.html

Smile +10 ^^^^^

Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

Quote:
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/......062.html

So of what use is the religion, with all the trappings?

Where the hell are the "goal posts" now? I can't even see them.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom


So you should base your actions on conjecture instead of your own absolute knowledge?

Wouldn't it be better to treat them well, assuming of course that you want to be treated well. That way you avoid the guesswork and probable errors, no?

What if your visualization leads you to believe they do not want to be treated well? What if you run into a masochist?

Just curious.


Of course you should treat them well, and we should assume that everybody wants to be treated well.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom


So you should base your actions on conjecture instead of your own absolute knowledge?

Wouldn't it be better to treat them well, assuming of course that you want to be treated well. That way you avoid the guesswork and probable errors, no?

What if your visualization leads you to believe they do not want to be treated well? What if you run into a masochist?

Just curious.


Of course you should treat them well, and we should assume that everybody wants to be treated well.

Tom


So why the need to visualize?

You may be wrong, no?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:


So why the need to visualize?

You may be wrong, no?


Because your idea of well may not be well enough.
Go the extra mile to be safe.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:


So why the need to visualize?

You may be wrong, no?


Because your idea of well may not be well enough.
Go the extra mile to be safe.

Tom


So treat them better than you'd want to be treated according to your own standards?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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