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kambiz
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On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Ok suit yourself

It was given by Krishna

Kam


So.......not god?


God speaks through people from age to age.

He spoke "through" Krishna 3000 years ago.

Think of it like a radio. Is it the radio speaking or is it the person "sending" the message?

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
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.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Ron


No, it tells you about the arbitrary nature of the Papacy.

Let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Ron Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
kambiz
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On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:

Anyway, I'd like to hear a straight answer from Tom as to what he thinks should happen to good nonbelievers after they die. If he (Tom) ran the Universe, how would he (Tom) treat nonbelievers?

Ron


I'm sure Tom may provide some useful insights for you Ron, but if we were to observe nature and human conduct in collaboration with justice and equity, one could easily extrapolate the correct answer for you.

When we look at how human progress is set up, it naturally rewards those who work hard, put in the effort and time and sacrifice to reach an ends.
If I was to work hard for 20 years trying to develop a product to help disabled people to live more comfortable lives (for example), fine tune it, go through endless failures and revamps for this product, until it reaches perfection, after years of dedication and sweat, do you think I deserve some recompense for that work which has culminated in providing a product that is so praiseworthy by those who use it?

Or is it justice for me to get nothing at all and I live in poverty for all my life?


If I was to go to university to become a dentist, work hard for 6 years, go through nights burning the midnight oil learning the intricacies of human anatomy, physiology etc, would it be just to be DENIED the ability to practice my skills after I have successfully completed the degree? "Thankyou very much for doing the course, now go back home to mum and dad and ask for your pocket money again!"

This is justice at play here, right?

All religion is saying is that when you do the right things, justice demands that you be rewarded for it.

Now, you ask what if I was an atheist doing all the right things?

In my opinion, religion is similar to your university. It tells you what you should do. It teaches you the equivalent of the anatomy and physiology etc.
Some people prefer to become dentists without going to university, they use their logic and rational reasoning.

This may very well be fine and you may very well become a dentist this way, but your odds are shortened somewhat.

Its simple rational logic dear friend.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Destiny
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On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Ron


No, it tells you about the arbitrary nature of the Papacy.

Let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Ron Smile

Kam


Having recently read a potted history of the popes I now regard myself as an eminent authority on the papacy Smile - it's astonishing how few of the popes over the centuries had any regard for Christianity and were only in office for the power and wealth the earthly kingdom of the papacy conferred. The last century has been an exception in that I would judge most recent popes have believed in their church and their religion and been sincere in wanting to do good - whether or not I agree with their opinions and actions. Of them, Pope Francis is to me at least (and don't forget I read a book) an absolute standout in conforming with the message of the Bible as I read it as a youngster, and in telling the truth, and focusing on the belief, not the Church. Many of them, even the well intentioned, have seemed to just ignore core messages of their messiah when those messages contradicted with the needs of the church, the infrastructure - it was like a magic trick where the mechanics of the performance overrode the importance of the magic.
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How it works ...

“Hey, Pete! How is that new program working out?”

“Kinda slow until I shaved,” Mike. “That old flowing white beard image wasn’t designed for a keyboard. Thought you were over at solipsism tournament.”

“I dropped out early when some of the new angels couldn’t remember which false avatar they preferred. Arguing with yourself is strange enough. Debating with a false self-image is weird.”

“What was that old earth song, ‘Is you is, or is you ain’t?’ I have the same problem here. Back in the quill and scroll days I could track a person’s life history easily. Now this computer data search gets lost over a person not knowing who they were in the first place.”

“I thought identity wasn’t critical for choosing between the “Justice” or “Mercy” doors.” Let Management sort it out later.”

“Other options now-a-days – ‘ascension apps’, you might say.”

“Don’t tell you got approval for that Repechage Slide?”

“Yup, the dearly departed can opt for going back and trying again. The can avoid the decision between the Doors by spinning the Ouroboros Wheel. Could be a cow, king, genius or oak tree. So, they have to sign a waver. This means they have to know who they are and can write. Gets tougher all the time.”

“And I thought keeping cherubs out of the Morman Flower Gardens was difficult.”

“Gets worse,” Michael. “Next year we add the Free Choice Wheel. Anyone avoiding the Divine Options can play on luck instead. One spin with a thousand options. Might get ‘Bosom of the Lord’, ‘Nirvana’, “Eternal Fire,’ or ‘Never Was’.”

“Never heard of that last one. The spirit can’t be naught.”

“Earth-types like to believe that what they do down there makes a difference. It does for those choosing Judgment or Mercy. If they spin the Big Wheel most opinions have a continuity or being, might even a residual memory or two. ‘Never Was’ is the worse kind of hell. Every bit of evidence that they ever existed at all is removed from the universe. Their spirit just goes back to the moment of creation.”

“Why in heaven would any spirit risk that?”

“I think they fear being a person even more.”

“Sure glad I was made an angel from the start.”

Peter laughed. “Are you certain you were?”
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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R.S.
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On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

Quote:
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...”


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/......062.html


Thanks Bob.

But then there's this...

Quote:
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

Did Pope Francis say atheists don’t need to believe in God to be saved? (9 things to know)
Contrary to claims otherwise, Pope Francis did not say that atheists can go to heaven without coming to faith, and he most certainly did not say that man can save himself by his own efforts.

Indeed, he speaks of the need for God’s mercy.



and this...

Quote:
http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/

What Pope Francis Really said About Atheiosts
Pope Francis did not say that an atheist who does naturally good things can be saved if he dies an atheist. Yet that is the impression given by Catholic Online’s half truth headline…

The Pope… simply reminded the faithful that there can be, and is, goodness, or natural virtue, outside the Church. And that Christ’s death on the Cross redeemed all men. He paid the price so that every man could come to God and be saved.


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Anyway, I'd like to hear a straight answer from Tom as to what he thinks should happen to good nonbelievers after they die. If he (Tom) ran the Universe, how would he (Tom) treat nonbelievers?

Ron


I'm just a Deist, Ron. I just do the best I can in this life and hope for the best in the next, if there is one.

But I like Pope Francis and I was going by what he actually said, rather than the multiple interpretations less progressive Catholics have given as alternative meanings.


Understood. Thanks so much, Bob! Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

At first it was "what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"

I answered you three times and said, God left that decision up to you. You either believe or you don’t believe. If you believe then you have a shot at heaven,
if you don’t then you end up someplace else.

I can’t say for sure where that someplace else is. Maybe Alaska or out in the hot desert somewhere, I don’t know. None of us know for sure yet.

Now you changing the question to what “Should” happen to them?


I believe the rules are already set and I can't change them. It's out of my hands.

Where you go,that’s not up to me to decide. That’s a decision we each have to make on our own. I can’t make it for you or you can’t make it for me. It’s that simple.

It’s like this Ron. If you want to go to New York you buy a ticket to New York. You don’t go down to the airport and buy a ticket to Africa and then complain
they didn’t send you to New York. You think the ticket sellers are the blame? It was your choice. You think the airline is at fault? All the signs said you going
the wrong way Ron, but you kept on going anyway. Your ticket clearly reads Africa bound, and now here you are wandering around in the jungle saying why am I here. Smile

I don't know what happens to us after we die. Just like I don't know when I will have an accident or die. That is why I have insurance. I just don't know.

Tom


Yes, I asked a couple of different questions which I wanted your response to. But your answers are somewhat, uh, circuitous?

Anyway, I asked what God does with good nonbelievers who die. And you answered by basically saying God leaves that decision up to the nonbeliever. Well, here's the problem, which I have previously elaborated (and seems to be lost on you)... how can nonbelievers choose between two options when they believe in neither?? That's like me asking you to choose between Leprechaun Heaven or Leprechaun Hell. I'm pretty sure that throughout your life you won't give a millisecond of thought to believing that either place actually and truly exists (even though you've heard of Leprechauns and I am warning you now). So where does choice come in?? So suppose you die and then, to your great surprise, you find there IS a Leprechaun Heaven and a Leprechaun Hell. Now what? Is it up to YOU to now pick a place? Or is it up to the Supreme Leprechaun King to put you someplace? It's the same thing with a god and atheists.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
R.S.
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On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
PS. Ok to play along, here is your straight answer:

Ron, If I ran the Universe I would save you a seat in heaven.

But I’m not sure how good of a seat that would be if you flat out refused to believe me or mocked me right up to the end.
I would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did. Honestly I probably wouldn't make a good God.

Tom


Thanks Tom. Smile

So, if you were God, then you would allow good nonbelievers into Heaven. But... this seems to contradict what you think the real God does. You seemed to imply above that nonbelievers end up in Hell because they "chose" to go there (which is God's design all along).

Congratulations - you've taken a very important first step by being thoughtful and being in opposition to your god. Smile

Ron
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R.S.
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On Apr 17, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
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On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God?

Ron: you've asked these questions many times of Christians.

Of what use is our opinion of whether that system is just or not?

How could we possibly know how we would run the universe if we were in charge?

And of what use is our opinion on how we'd run the universe?


What use?? Are we just thoughtless automatons being run by dictatorial law? Do this and don't question it, and do that and don't question it? And even though the bible endorses slavery, we have done away with that haven't we? So our opinions of justice and morality DO matter. And it is a worthy thought experiment to imagine how we would run the universe if we were God. Smile

Ron
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R.S.
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On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Ron


No, it tells you about the arbitrary nature of the Papacy.

Let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Ron Smile

Kam


And does the Pope have the power to modify/alter/interpret doctrine?

There is no baby, so the bathwater is irrelevant. Smile

Ron
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R.S.
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On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:


Now, you ask what if I was an atheist doing all the right things?


Kam


The difference between you and me is that you need God in order to be good (as you have previously admitted), but I don't.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Conform to nature and you do well. Do not conform to nature and you do badly.

Such is the power of the Gods.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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kambiz
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On Apr 17, 2015, R.S. wrote:
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On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:


Now, you ask what if I was an atheist doing all the right things?


Kam


The difference between you and me is that you need God in order to be good (as you have previously admitted), but I don't.

Ron


Aren't you happy that we both do good?

I know I am Smile

Kam
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.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom
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If there is an all-knowing, all-powerful God, I suspect that with our comparatively ignorant understanding of everything, speculating as to what we'd do if we were similarly situated is sort of like a mouse thinking about what it wouldl do if it were human.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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On Apr 17, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If there is an all-knowing, all-powerful God, I suspect that with our comparatively ignorant understanding of everything, speculating as to what we'd do if we were similarly situated is sort of like a mouse thinking about what it wouldl do if it were human.


Lead the parade at Disneyland?
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As Mike Stivic said to Archie Bunker, "Mickey Mouse is black."
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Just to interject, because the OP raised a question about morality, not religion:

I have a paperback edition of the book "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are" by Robert Wright.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-E......79763996

It was shipped to me by mistake when I ordered a different used book from an online source. They corrected their mistake and forwarded me the correct book, but told me not to bother returning "The Moral Animal" book. Since I have no interest in the topic, I would be happy to send it to someone else.

The sub-heading claims this book deals with "The New Science Of Evolutionary Psychology." And the New York Times Book Review says: "Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original. A feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are."

Landmark, since you were the OP, I'll let you have first dibs. Otherwise, whoever PM's me next will get the book. Shipping is on me.
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Quote:
On Apr 17, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Just to interject, because the OP raised a question about morality, not religion:

I have a paperback edition of the book "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are" by Robert Wright.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-E......79763996

It was shipped to me by mistake when I ordered a different used book from an online source. They corrected their mistake and forwarded me the correct book, but told me not to bother returning "The Moral Animal" book. Since I have no interest in the topic, I would be happy to send it to someone else.

The sub-heading claims this book deals with "The New Science Of Evolutionary Psychology." And the New York Times Book Review says: "Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original. A feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are."

Landmark, since you were the OP, I'll let you have first dibs. Otherwise, whoever PM's me next will get the book. Shipping is on me.

Thanks, arthur, but the unread book pile is growing like kudzu around here.
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