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landmark
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I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters.
Cliffg37
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The closest thing I can think of to "true natural law" would be Charles Darwin's "Survival of the fittest." Morality is a human construct. Humans invented it to protect ourselves from threats. Do animals feel guilt or regret if they fight over a mate or over food or territory and one of them is killed in the fight? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that people we judge to be "Immoral" are often people who follow their own rules. Not "evil people," not people out to harm others randomly, just people out for themselves. Our morality is meant to protect us from these people.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
stoneunhinged
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I'll bite, but I'll wait until a few others have posted.

The problem with "do unto others" is that it is not compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. What's the penalty if you "do unto yourself"?
Cliffg37
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The golden rule, "Do unto others..." really only works with people who believe they will be judged in an afterlife on the quality they chose to live here in Earth.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, landmark wrote:
I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters.


2. Because we don't all interpret information identically. We can attend the same lecture and come back with different understandings of it.
4. Morality isn't necessarily useful.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I'll bite, but I'll wait until a few others have posted.

The problem with "do unto others" is that it is not compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. What's the penalty if you "do unto yourself"?


Morality isn't (imo) necessarily utilitarian; it just happens to have some nice utilitarian side effects. No law is compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. There doesn't have to be a penalty involved for the wrong thing to be the wrong thing.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
The golden rule, "Do unto others..." really only works with people who believe they will be judged in an afterlife on the quality they chose to live here in Earth.


Really?? Why?? I don't believe in a life after I've already lived my life, yet I think the Golden rule is an excellent way to live. In fact, if those who practice the Golden rule are doing it for the sole purpose of being rewarded in an afterlife, then perhaps they are not as moral as those who practice the rule and do not expect or require any reward. Besides, some religions posit that you can basically be a terrible person your whole life, but as long as you repent and accept a certain person as your savior in your last moments, then you will be granted immunity and accepted into a glorious afterlife. Does that sound fair and reasonable?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Ron,
Certainly sounds fair and reasonable to me.

At what age would you have the cut off date? Smile


tom
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R.S.
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On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,
Certainly sounds fair and reasonable to me.

At what age would you have the cut off date? Smile


tom


Hi Tom,

Can rapists, thieves, and even murderers be admitted to Heaven if in the last moments (literally) of their life they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

And what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Ron

Yes, I believe they can.

HE wouldn’t be doing anything to them, that was their own choice. Otherwise I’m not sure what would happen.

That's my belief.

Tom
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R.S.
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On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron

Yes, I believe they can.


Ok, you believe they "can"... but SHOULD lifelong rapists and murderers, in your opinion, be rewarded with Heaven for merely pronouncing their faith in their final moments? If YOU ran the Universe, would YOU employ those rules?


Quote:

HE wouldn’t be doing anything to them, that was their own choice. Otherwise I’m not sure what would happen.

That's my belief.

Tom


WHAT was their choice???

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
The golden rule, "Do unto others..." really only works with people who believe they will be judged in an afterlife on the quality they chose to live here in Earth.


What do you mean by "works" here?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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It is only natural in America that the Enforcers believe that life's a Hollywood movie that they can shoot
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Ron, the choice is to believe or not believe. That’s all it takes, it’s all about having faith.

Faith is your insurance, (it's all explained in the policy) I have it, you don’t, end of story. Smile

Tom
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Cliffg37
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Ron, my hat is off to you sir. I rarely find people willing to be good and do good just for the sake of "The right thing to do." You have my thanks.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right!
tommy
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The choice is to bugger or not to bugger. It’s all about not knowing your ass from your elbow.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron, the choice is to believe or not believe. That’s all it takes, it’s all about having faith.

Faith is your insurance, (it's all explained in the policy) I have it, you don’t, end of story. Smile

Tom

Tom,

Thanks, but I think you are confused about the question. Here it is again...

"And what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"

Please answer that question without going off on a tangent.

Ron

Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
Ron, my hat is off to you sir. I rarely find people willing to be good and do good just for the sake of "The right thing to do." You have my thanks.

Thanks Cliff! But I really don't think that's a rare quality of atheists. And I am certainly not "special" - it's just common sense that if I don't want to be harmed, or have my belongings stolen, or be mistreated, then I shouldn't be doing those things to others. To do those things to others would not only cause pain and misery in the lives of others, but would invite retribution. And that's no way to live. Better to be happy and make others happy in this one shot at existence, in my view. Smile

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
TomBoleware
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Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.



Tom
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tommy
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I blame Saint Peter.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron

Yes, I believe they can.

Ok, you believe they "can"... but SHOULD lifelong rapists and murderers, in your opinion, be rewarded with Heaven for merely pronouncing their faith in their final moments? If YOU ran the Universe, would YOU employ those rules?

Quote:
HE wouldn’t be doing anything to them, that was their own choice. Otherwise I’m not sure what would happen.

That's my belief.

Tom

WHAT was their choice???

Ron

Channeling Jackie Gleason.

(Danny: I think that the o/u just shortened.)
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