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The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Not very magical, still... Ľ Ľ Natural Law Ľ Ľ TOPIC IS LOCKED (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 22, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.

I think this is a good reply to the question as written.


I don't, but I appreciate your mileage ' s variance. You can't play the "I'm just a mindreader" card when you also created the mind.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
R.S.
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CT one day I'll have
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On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Life is a sightseeing trip; we can choose many different paths and still end up at the same place. The little twists and turns we make are
up to us and donít mean we will never get to a predicted place. I could give you a road map to my house with a million different routes to take.
How you get here is your choice and it doesnít change the fact I knew you were coming.

I also know ahead of time that if you remain loss you wonít make it. Itís entirely up to you. I gave you two choices, come see me or not.


Tom


But Tom, you've already admitted that, unlike your God, you would bring decent nonbelievers into Heaven. Are you now contradicting yourself? Smile


Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
NYCTwister
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Personally I'm against the M&Ms and cotton candy.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
TomBoleware
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Quote:

But Tom, you've already admitted that, unlike your God, you would bring decent nonbelievers into Heaven. Are you now contradicting yourself? Smile


Ron



I believe I said, ďI would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did.Ē Meaning, unless you asked for that forgiveness I might not be so happy.Smile

I put you here, gave you a choice, a mind to help you make that choice, what else you want? Surely not to take way the ability to think on your own, like I did some,
but those get a free pass. The rest are free to choose. Nothing unfair about that.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
ed rhodes
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There's a book by Larry Niven called "Inferno." A science fiction writer dies unrepetant and is sent to Hell. While there, he meets a guide named Benito and is taken through all the levels of Hell to reach the center where he can find a cave that will lead to Heaven.

At the end of the book. While sitting in the cave with Benito. Alan, the writer, says that he's come up with a reason why God would create a Hell and there's only one way to test it.

I won't spoil it for you, go to the library and find "Inferno" by Larry Niven.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
R.S.
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Quote:

But Tom, you've already admitted that, unlike your God, you would bring decent nonbelievers into Heaven. Are you now contradicting yourself? Smile


Ron



I believe I said, ďI would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did.Ē Meaning, unless you asked for that forgiveness I might not be so happy.Smile

I put you here, gave you a choice, a mind to help you make that choice, what else you want? Surely not to take way the ability to think on your own, like I did some,
but those get a free pass. The rest are free to choose. Nothing unfair about that.

Tom


So are you saying that as long as nonbelievers ask for forgiveness after they die, then you would allow them into Heaven? And if not, then you might send them to Hell?

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:

I put you here, gave you a choice, a mind to help you make that choice, what else you want? Surely not to take way the ability to think on your own, like I did some,
but those get a free pass. The rest are free to choose. Nothing unfair about that.

Tom


I'm confused. Who exactly did you take away the freedom to think from, and why do they get a free pass?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.



God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.



The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.


I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
TomBoleware
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Ron after they die itís too late.Smile

Did I mention my number one rule; I donít have to explain myself to nobody. Whatís done is done. Take it or leave it.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
acesover
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You are having a causal conversation God. You are holding an apple. Now God says to you. I know whether you are going to take a bite of that apple or not. However the choice is yours. But he still knows what your choice will be.

Of course a mentalist can do the same thing with two pieces of paper. One saying your bit the apple and the other saying you did not bite the apple. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
TomBoleware
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No not hard at all when you only have two choices. Smile

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Smile

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. Smile

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Smile

Tom


For the most part we agree on most issues.

However The, keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Not really. Think about it.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. Smile

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Smile

Tom


For the most part we agree on most issues.

However The, keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Not really. Think about it.


I guess certain types of minds think alike. Most of the time.

Still wondering who doesn't get the ability to choose, and why.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
TomBoleware
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When you have to make a choice and donít make it, that is in itself a choice. Isnít it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasnít learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
When you have to make a choice and donít make it, that is in itself a choice. Isnít it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasnít learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom


Seriously curious about this.

So, the mentally impaired, who you chose to take the choice away from; and children, who have no choice until a certain age. at which point they are responsible for making choices, get a pass?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
TomBoleware
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Of course, why not? Itís only fair that they do.

Now that impairment may not be as bad as some think.Smile

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
When you have to make a choice and donít make it, that is in itself a choice. Isnít it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasnít learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom


I do understand your reasoning. But the point I was trying to make is that if you do not make a choice as per the example with the apple you do not bite it. Ergo the choice is negative , NO BITE...although not a choice but electing to do nothing is not biting the apple in this example. OMG I have a headache, lol.

Tom, it may be difficult but definitely worth the effort. Try and pretend that NYCTwister is not here. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
NYCTwister
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On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
:rotf:


If you keep coming out of your corner little man then eventually a Muslim will get behind you.

I'm trying to help you so, for your own sake, stay in your little corner of the world. Everyone is the same there, so they will protect you while you laugh like a madman.

Ian says hi, Btw.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Of course, why not? Itís only fair that they do.

Now that impairment may not be as bad as some think.Smile

Tom


So my assumption about your decision making processes, if you were god, is correct?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
kambiz
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
"Those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son."


Lobo, this quote is not in reference to people like you and I.

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index Ľ Ľ Not very magical, still... Ľ Ľ Natural Law Ľ Ľ TOPIC IS LOCKED (5 Likes)
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