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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Parents of Child Killed in Boston Marathon Bombing Don’t Want Tsarnaev to Face the Death Penalty (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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acesover
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Quote:
On May 2, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
You'd like to hope.


Not so sure he is kidding. remember this is his posts on another thread here:

What do we want?...JUSTICE!
When do we want it?...NOW!

That could be be justice in his mind...torture.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Destiny
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On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 2, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
A torture penalty was used against the slaves in the USA after a number of revolts. After a slave revolt in New York in 1712 one of the leaders was slowly fried to death on a large metal plate. The torture is said to have lasted ten hours. Another was broken at the wheel. That might suit your ideas, Mike. He was strapped to a wagon wheel and his legs and arms were systematically beaten with mallets. But they were careful not to hit his head or torso which might have quickened his end. The rest of the rebels were burnt at the stake.

How did that work out, Mike?

Oh yes, the slaves kept revolting, emancipation was won, the blacks kept agitating, civil rights were won. Thankfully torture was not a deterrent.

It has not been found to be a deterrent, except in the short term, anyplace.


You have no idea from that anecdote whether or not it was a deterrent.


Charles II had Oliver Cromwell's rotten body dug up, hung, beheaded and drawn and quartered. There is no suggestion Cromwell ever again deposed an English King so I think there is evidence for the efficacy of torture and capital punishment.
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Smile. Humorous point taken, but Tony's serious point is quite logically flawed. "Deterrent" wouldn't mean that *all* revolts stopped, but rather that there were fewer than here otherwise would have been.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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TonyB2009
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Quote:
On May 4, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
;). Humorous point taken, but Tony's serious point is quite logically flawed. "Deterrent" wouldn't mean that *all* revolts stopped, but rather that there were fewer than here otherwise would have been.

Ok, here is another example. In 1916 a group of people with no popular support in Ireland rebelled against the English authorities who then ran the country. The rebellion was crushed in a week, despite the fact that the British were taken up with the First World War. Many tens of thousands of young Irish men were fighting for the British in the trenches, and there was no real support for the rebels.

Shortly after the rebellion many of the leaders were sentenced to death, and executed by firing squad. One was injured and had to be shot in his wheelchair. When the leaders were killed, the Irish suddenly switched allegiance and backed the rebels, and within three years a full-scale war was in progress against the British. That would not have happened if the British had not chosen to use the deterrent effect of executions. Lengthy prison sentences would have actually served as a far bigger deterrent.

Sometimes a deterrent serves the purpose of annoying a populace and making them more eager to overthrow the regime that imposes the deterrent. I believe that if whites had treated blacks better the march to civil rights would have taken a lot longer. I know that if the British had treated the Irish better after the 1916 rising, we would not have progressed to the war of independence. Deterrents often back-fire.

Ask the Baltimore police force. They'll tell you.
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The plural of anecdote is not data.
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I know, Danny. But how much scientific study has been done on the deterrent effects of torture and execution? Not really one of the hot areas of research.
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Actually there is considerable research done on torture.
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On it's effects as a deterrent? Point me in the right direction. I am always eager to learn.

I feel that deterrents are a very blunt instrument. There is anecdotal evidence (the Irish example I cited for instance) that sometimes a deterrent backfires. That is human nature. Obviously sometimes a deterrent works. But I don't think you can take it as a given.
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Tony- I wouldn't consider the Irish example to be anecdotal. It's a matter of documented historical fact.
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Https://www.utexas.edu/law/centers/human......Work.pdf

A place to start. Not too hard to find studies actually.
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As a means of punishment or persuasion do bombs work?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Danny, interesting article. But not conclusive. For example, the author acknowledges that the French use of torture in Algiers was a failure, leading to a French withdrawal from that country. He also says that the CIA torture program in Vietnam was ineffective. In fact the whole thrust of the article was that torture does not work.

Unfortunately any study will be anecdotal, as much of this was. It is based on a historic record of what happened, not on any sociological or psychological assessment of the effects of torture, execution, etc. As I said, it would be difficult to get a research grant to study the actual effects of torture. Far easier to get a historic perspective as this study did. More anecdotes, but cloaked in academia.
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Quote:
On May 4, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Https://www.utexas.edu/law/centers/human......Work.pdf

A place to start. Not too hard to find studies actually.


Had a quick read through. Very interesting. Hope to read more thoroughly later. Thanks, Danny.

This one isn't a study, but it's an (informed) summary of other findings, including historical reports. It's pretty persuasive, nonetheless.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Yea I thought it a better place for ME to start as a "study" tends to bog down my mind. Not as smart as I think I am sometimes.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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