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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Parents of Child Killed in Boston Marathon Bombing Don’t Want Tsarnaev to Face the Death Penalty (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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NYCTwister
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On Apr 20, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
How many executions of innocent defendants is acceptable?


Zero.


Which, if true, still doesn't give one license to make up an unsupported high number.


True.

On the one hand if there is ANY doubt as to the guilt then the death penalty should be off the table.

On the other hand if there is no doubt i.e. a combination of multiple video acoounts, multiple eye witnesses, DNA evidence, an uncoerced taped confession, completely taped interrogation etc. then I don't think that someone who murders another should be allowed to keep their life, regardless of how they spend their prison time.
Murder is the only crime it should even be considered for.

I just hate the whole subject. At the end of the whole thing the person carrying out the sentence is also a killer.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
How many executions of innocent defendants is acceptable?


Zero.


Which, if true, still doesn't give one license to make up an unsupported high number.


True.

On the one hand if there is ANY doubt as to the guilt then the death penalty should be off the table.

On the other hand if there is no doubt i.e. a combination of multiple video acoounts, multiple eye witnesses, DNA evidence, an uncoerced taped confession, completely taped interrogation etc. then I don't think that someone who murders another should be allowed to keep their life, regardless of how they spend their prison time.
Murder is the only crime it should even be considered for.

I just hate the whole subject. At the end of the whole thing the person carrying out the sentence is also a killer.



Sounds like you share Bob's position on the issue.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
acesover
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On Apr 20, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Death penalty, life in prison, very long in prison. They are all inadequate responses to heinous crimes.

There is no happy ending; there is no fitting conclusion. I doubt that there ever can be.


OMG. I cannot believe it but I believe and agree whole heartedly with what you said.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
rockwall
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Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
How many executions of innocent defendants is acceptable?


2%
acesover
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Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
How many executions of innocent defendants is acceptable?


Zero is the acceptable answer. But unfortunately it is not the solution. All issues have solutions. But many of those solutions are not acceptable by everyone. Does that surprise anyone?

The only fortunate fact is that more guilty have met their punishment than have gone free. In some minds that is enough. Is it? I find it difficult to answer that question because of the content. Smile However there is no absolute answer. There are many opinions and just arguments for both sides.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
acesover
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On Apr 20, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Apr 19, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
I cannot imagine how one must feel when a loved on is murdered, but I am not opposed to the death penalty on the grounds that it is inhumane, extreme, immoral, etc. Additionally, I don't think it completely matters what the victim thinks, as one of the purposes of sentencing is punishment of behalf of society (as well as deterrence and rehabilitation. Obviously, death does not rehabilitate, but it does prevent habitual offenders). The only factor that concerns me is that it might possibly be applied to someone who was wrongly convicted.

Wrongly convicted people getting the death penalty is a major issue in the US. According to research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences one in 25 of those on death row are completely innocent, and the USA has executed more than 100 innocent people since the resumption of executions in 1977.

Also, the Supreme Court has ruled (Herrera V Collins) that proving one is innocent is not grounds to halt an execution. That is the most compelling reason to oppose the death penalty.


Just some additional facts:



Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, 1,389 convicted murderers have been executed in the United States. (As of October 1, 2014)

Of those executed, 15 were female. (The last was Lisa Ann Coleman in Texas on September 14, 2014).

Of those executed, 772 (55.6%) were white and 470 (33.8%) were black.

Executions were held in 34 different states: 517 (37.2%) were in Texas and 20 (1.4%) were in Indiana.


Of those executed:

1,212 (87.3%) were executed by lethal injection, including 748 of the last 758 executions.

158 (11.6%) were executed by electric chair. (The last was Robert Charles Gleason Jr. in Virginia on January 16, 2013).
Florida 44, Virginia 31, Alabama 24, Georgia 23, Louisiana 20, South Carolina 7, Indiana 3, Nebraska 3, Kentucky 1, Arkansas 1, Tennessee 1.

11 (0.8%) were executed by gas chamber. (The last was Walter LaGrand in Arizona on March 3, 1999).
Mississippi 4, California 2, North Carolina 2, Arizona 2, Nevada 1.

3 (0.2%) were executed by hanging. (The last was Billy Bailey in Delaware on January 25, 1996).
Washington 2, Delaware 1.


3 (0.2%) were executed by firing squad. (The last was Ronnie Lee Gardner in Utah on June 18, 2010).
Utah 3.

Currently 32 states, the Federal Government and U.S. Military have active Death Penalty statutes:
(Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, Wyoming)

Currently, 18 states and the District of Columbia have no death penalty:
(Alaska, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin)



Also:


Wrongful execution is a miscarriage of justice occurring when an innocent person is put to death by capital punishment, the "death penalty." Cases of wrongful execution are cited as an argument by opponents of capital punishment.[1]

A number of people are claimed to have been innocent victims of the death penalty.[2][3] Newly available DNA evidence has allowed the exoneration and release of more than 17 death row inmates since 1992 in the United States,[4] but DNA evidence is available in only a fraction of capital cases. Others have been released on the basis of weak cases against them, sometimes involving prosecutorial misconduct; resulting in acquittal at retrial, charges dropped, or innocence-based pardons. The Death Penalty Information Center (U.S.) has published a list of 10 inmates "executed but possibly innocent".[5] At least 39 executions are claimed to have been carried out in the U.S. in the face of evidence of innocence or serious doubt about guilt.[6]

Did something I usually do not do and looked up this info as I find it troubling and was looking for some answers. Not sure where Tony gets the 100 innocent executed. I did not find these numbers. I may have missed them. However this number seems to be 39 not 100. But yea...39 to many. But...
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
magicfish
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On Apr 20, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
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On Apr 20, 2015, tommy wrote:
Death or a life time in prison, the way I see it is, what’s the difference?


Image

Sigh...am I the only one who has stopped looking at these animated squares?
I wish you would just post something. The novelty has worn off. We get it, you know how to do it. Move on. Sorry. Not trying to be mean.
magicfish
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On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
How many executions of innocent defendants is acceptable?


Zero.


Which, if true, still doesn't give one license to make up an unsupported high number.


True.

On the one hand if there is ANY doubt as to the guilt then the death penalty should be off the table.

On the other hand if there is no doubt i.e. a combination of multiple video acoounts, multiple eye witnesses, DNA evidence, an uncoerced taped confession, completely taped interrogation etc. then I don't think that someone who murders another should be allowed to keep their life, regardless of how they spend their prison time.
Murder is the only crime it should even be considered for.

I just hate the whole subject. At the end of the whole thing the person carrying out the sentence is also a killer.

A killer, but not a murderer.
NYCTwister
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On Apr 20, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
How many executions of innocent defendants is acceptable?


Zero.


Which, if true, still doesn't give one license to make up an unsupported high number.


True.

On the one hand if there is ANY doubt as to the guilt then the death penalty should be off the table.

On the other hand if there is no doubt i.e. a combination of multiple video acoounts, multiple eye witnesses, DNA evidence, an uncoerced taped confession, completely taped interrogation etc. then I don't think that someone who murders another should be allowed to keep their life, regardless of how they spend their prison time.
Murder is the only crime it should even be considered for.

I just hate the whole subject. At the end of the whole thing the person carrying out the sentence is also a killer.

A killer, but not a murderer.


Of course.

I'd imagine that the deliberate taking of another life would weigh on the conscience of anyone.

You couldn't get me to take the job.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Salguod Nairb
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On Apr 20, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, tommy wrote:
Death or a life time in prison, the way I see it is, what’s the difference?


Image

Sigh...am I the only one who has stopped looking at these animated squares?
I wish you would just post something. The novelty has worn off. We get it, you know how to do it. Move on. Sorry. Not trying to be mean.



Image
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
tommy
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Clever boy.
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On Apr 21, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, tommy wrote:
Death or a life time in prison, the way I see it is, what’s the difference?


Image

Sigh...am I the only one who has stopped looking at these animated squares?
I wish you would just post something. The novelty has worn off. We get it, you know how to do it. Move on. Sorry. Not trying to be mean.



Image


:)
ed rhodes
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On Apr 20, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Good question. A related question is "What's an acceptable number of innocent defendants in prison for the rest of their lives?"


An innocent defendant in prison can work on getting released. An innocent defendant who has been executed cannot work on coming back to life.

In this particular case, I'm sadistic enough to like the idea of this guy spending the next 70 years in jail.
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
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Ain't life unkind?"
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 21, 2015, ed rhodes wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Good question. A related question is "What's an acceptable number of innocent defendants in prison for the rest of their lives?"


An innocent defendant in prison can work on getting released. An innocent defendant who has been executed cannot work on coming back to life.

An innocent defendant on death row can work on getting released, too. Conversely, an innocent defendant who has died in prison cannot work on getting released before spending the rest of his life in prison.

And, of course, you didn't answer the question - What's the acceptable number of innocent defendants in prison for the rest of their lives?


Quote:
In this particular case, I'm sadistic enough to like the idea of this guy spending the next 70 years in jail.

Doesn't sound like a fun 70 years.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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He was not the first nor will he the last to retaliate for the US lead wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

If you don’t kill him, down the line he might get exchanged for a captured American.

Well there are many things that might not go according to plan.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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On Apr 21, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Conversely, an innocent defendant who has died in prison cannot work on getting released before spending the rest of his life in prison.



I don't get this point, Lobo. Dying in prison is not the same thing as being executed. If you die, you die, wherever you are. If you are killed, you are killed, wherever you are. Dying and being killed are not the same.
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Compromise; when he dies hang his dead body in public.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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On Apr 21, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 21, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Conversely, an innocent defendant who has died in prison cannot work on getting released before spending the rest of his life in prison.



I don't get this point, Lobo. Dying in prison is not the same thing as being executed. If you die, you die, wherever you are. If you are killed, you are killed, wherever you are. Dying and being killed are not the same.


Ed point is misleading. It suggests that a life sentence is reversible, and a death sentence isn't. But in fact that's only true if you consider the death sentence *after* the penalty has been carried out, and the life sentence *before*. A prisoner on death row might have his conviction overturned twenty years later. A prisoner sentenced to life in prison might die in prison ten years later - his entire sentence was carried out, and nothing can be done about it.

If you don't oppose life sentences, then you have to be willing to accept a nonzero number of innocent defendants spending the rest of their lives in prison. So the question remains...how many?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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So, does this doubt attend the guilt of Tsarnaev? Are we 100% certain?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Sophisticates always leave open a slim possibility that what they know for certain might be wrong.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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