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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » "TV Rights not included" <- legal? (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 26, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
My point was: Normally a seller will make you aware of the limitations on licensed products before the purchase, not after it.
You certainly have a right to a refund if they don’t. Otherwise they should be called out and exposed for what they really are. Smile

Tom


You keep saying things like "right" or what not. You do understand that this term means something different in Germany than it does in the United States right?

People say stuff like this as if the United States is the only country on the planet for pity sake. You have no idea, he may very well have NO rights. Heck he bought it from a guy in another country than his own! Talking like a lawyer does not make one a lawyer.



Danny, right is right and fair is fair no matter where you live.
Or that’s my opinion, yours may be different.


Tom
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Dannydoyle
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Tom a "right" to something is not the same as what is "right" all the time.

"Fair" is subjective. What is fair to one may not be fair to another.

You were using "right" as a noun. A "right" to a refund. Sometimes, rights means that which is due to anyone by just claim, legal guarantees, moral principles, etc. It is absolutely absurd to tell someone in another country that he has a "right" to ANYTHING! You are not an American lawyer much less an international one! But you think it is "fair" to give legal advice to others in another country. Yea I happen to have a different opinion.

I don't care what your opinion is Tom. You have NO IDEA what this guys "rights" are. Also you have NO IDEA what recourse the author may have if the OP was to " be called out and exposed for what they really are."

But by all means keep dispensing potentially harmful legal advice to people in other countries. After all it is "fair" and you have the "right" to do it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, I don’t care what your opinion is, mine will not change.

I do have a “right” to one, you know.Smile

and of course it is just my opinion and not legal advice.
We all know that so please stop trying to make something else out of it.

Tom
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Dannydoyle
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And I guess I have a right to point out how uninformed that opinion is. It only Seems fair.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
sirbrad
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Yeah it makes no sense, how exactly is worldwide exposure of your trick/routine a bad thing? Especially when you are selling it? Seems to me these idiots think that some magician is going to get rich and famous off their little trick, and they want to cover themselves so maybe they can get a piece of the pie later. When in reality no one gives a crap except maybe a few magicians who catch it on TV and then might want to buy it. They are biting the hand that feeds them. The only way worldwide exposure would be a bad thing was if you were not selling the trick/routine and wanted to keep it to yourself. In that case don't sell the *** thing!
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
Memory-Jah
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Exactly
"Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible." - Count Elmsley
sirbrad
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And as I said when you sell a DVD and do not disclose that information before someone buys it, and they see it only after watching it much like Craig and Dave did on the WPR that is fraud. You don't just leave that information out to get sales and charge someone who buys it to perform it, which is the whole point of buying it. These self-centered idiots have a lot to learn about business and ethics.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
Memory-Jah
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In this case (Imprint) they have it written on each dealer's website. So this does not cover previous releases obviously and still it is open to debate in how far they can legally permit you from performing this trick with just the note.
"Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible." - Count Elmsley
MaxfieldsMagic
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You already have a good cite on the copyright law aspect of this - the contract law aspect is that you can only be bound by the terms of a contract that are spelled out during the offer/acceptance/consideration phase. That is, Sans Minds makes an offer to sell you a tutorial DVD, and clearly states in the advertising (and on the outside of the DVD box, in this case) that they are withholding TV rights. You accept that offer. The contract is consummated when you pay for the DVD (consideration). Boom, you and SansMinds have an enforceable contract, and you have agreed to its terms.

This case differs from one in which no initial mention is made of withheld rights until you pop the DVD into your machine and hear the creator say he's withholding such rights. That situation, which we have also seen recently, is not enforceable as a contract, because it was not part of the offer, and you didn't accept the term before you supplied consideration (ie, paid for the DVD).
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TomBoleware
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Well said Max. Yes if it’s on the dealer's website and written on the box, he is covered.

He can legally sell you an empty box if he tells you it’s empty up front.Smile


Tom
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Dannydoyle
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And Tom how does that apply internationally?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MaxfieldsMagic
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Quote:
On Apr 28, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Well said Max. Yes if it’s on the dealer's website and written on the box, he is covered.

He can legally sell you an empty box if he tells you it’s empty up front.Smile


Tom


In fact, here's an ad for one now: http://www.amazon.com/Pratt-Recycled-Cor......ng+boxes
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TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Apr 29, 2015, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 28, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Well said Max. Yes if it’s on the dealer's website and written on the box, he is covered.

He can legally sell you an empty box if he tells you it’s empty up front.Smile


Tom


In fact, here's an ad for one now: http://www.amazon.com/Pratt-Recycled-Cor......ng+boxes



LOL




Thinking: If I buy that and there is nothing in it when I receive it, can I take legal action?

Or would that depend on where I live? Smile

Tom
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Dannydoyle
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Yea Tom whatever you think is right. You are the worlds foremost authority on things you never studied. You are an advertising expert an international lawyer and a magician plus anything else you want to pretend to be an expert in.

Congratulations. But sarcasm does not make you either right or smarter.

But what mechanisms do you suggest exist to enforce international disputes of commerce?

Sure Amazon itself or eBay will have ways to do it but that is not international law.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
MaxfieldsMagic
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Big secret: there is no "international law." The only international law that exists is treaties signed between consenting states. And even then you have to look to see if the domestic supporting legislation was passed in the affected countries, and then further to see whether there are differences in the supporting legislation and the terms of the treaty. It seems that some people here are looking for a "one size fits all" answer for a legal issue that crosses international borders, but in a world of sovereign states that's not how the law has ever worked.
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Dannydoyle
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Which has been why telling anyone they have "rights" to this or that in another country is not a good thing. Also why I said find a German lawyer.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware
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Danny, I don’t know what your problem is but you certainly deserve the sarcasm.

Go back and actually read what I said. I made it clear from the very beginning that the best thing to do was to talk to the seller.
And he did just that and now we are talking. Just talking Danny, we’re not playing lawyer or anything else.

We understand his frustration with the whole TV right thing and actually agree with him that it doesn’t really make sense to place such limits on a magic trick.
But if he does then it's not much you can do about it.

I also understand that your only advice is to get a Lawyer. You want him to go hire a lawyer, not consider anything else, not to listen to anyone here,
just go pay a Lawyer to advise him about this magic trick. He can certainly still do just that if he likes.

Still we appreciate your wisdom Danny.

Tom
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Dannydoyle
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Better to pay a lawyer than listen to barking on by wannabe everything on the internet. Proper legal advice is far less expensive in the long run. One day you are going to give some advice you shouldn't and it is going to backfire big time on some unsuspecting kid.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
flyboy6541
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How much of the effect would I have to change to my own patter and style before I can preform it without TV rights permission granted? For example, what if I preformed a version of Sam the Bellhop but changed the story completely, changes the club number, but still gave credit to Bill Malone. Remember when Daniel Garcia was on a pod cast and did Sam the Bellhop but made up his own story as he dealt the cards? I would hate to see someone get sued for making a joke for magicians or trying to get a gig or some views on YouTube. What happens if you come up with almost the same exact method all by yourself and preformed it on TV as your own--can you get sued for that? I've always been told that as long as you don't do the trick exactly like how you learned it and always gave credit to the creator, it was okay to preform. Also, what about YouTube and social media sites. Is there a line between TV and YouTube rights? Or does the word "Broadcasting" cover everything. There are a lot of famous YouTube Magicians that get paid for their videos and they preform tricks almost exactly how they learned it; what about review videos on YouTube that get the reviewer paid? I would hate to start seeing everything effect that comes out with broadcasting restrictions.

-Joe
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1. If you get sued, that usually means more publicity for yourself that actually works in your favour.

2. For a magician to try and sue you will cost them thousands which very few even have. Im not saying its ethically right to ignore, but neither is them selling a trick and witholding information until after you've bought it. That fact alone would mean should it ever reach the court, I reckon the case would be thrown out.

3. Sam the Bellhop is just a variation on Monty the Spiv, that is over 70 years old, meaning its now in the public domain. But a storydeck is just a title, its not a copyrightable trick. The script for sam the bellhop could be protected but make numerous changes or write an entirely new story and your fine.

4. Should you get sued, depending on what level it is, you can just delete the video file from the server and problem solved. They have to give you 30 days notice to remedy the situation out-of-court before getting a judge involved. In which case you remove the video.

Im not a lawyer, but agree that magicians releasing effects with tv rights reserved is nonsence. If they don't want people performing their effect, then don't release it. You cant sell something and then say your not allowed to perform it in these places. that's just ridiculous.
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