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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » "TV Rights not included" <- legal? (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Memory-Jah
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Hi everyone, I would like to start a very important topic here. I don't see any problems with people speculating, however a real profound answer from maybe experts might be the best.
The question is: If I buy a trick to know its secret, is it legal for a seller to deny any tv rights for this effect? I find this very problematic. I have a little tv gig soon where you get only like 200 bucks or so and I would like to perform a trick there where the seller put a note: no tv rights...I feel kinda cheated as the sole purpose of buying an effect is to actually perform this. So again, before we go into heavy back and forth, I really hope there are some experts on this subject here.

Looking forward to read some answers. As it might help other magicians too in future.

Markus
"Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible." - Count Elmsley
Dannydoyle
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You need to ask a German lawyer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Memory-Jah
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Is there not a more general answer possible because the seller (sansmind) is not based in Germany.
"Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible." - Count Elmsley
Mindpro
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Yes, it's perfectly legal. Just because you purchase and pay for the secret in no way gives you permission, license or rights to perform it on television. These are usually separate rights and come at a much higher price as they aren't as widely granted and often are based on only a few issued with such rights.

In reality, just because you purchase a DVD, book or release really, unless specifically specified, actually does not even allow you public performance rights. Most do not enforce this, and some actually assume you will perform it live, but again a live performance before a very limited audience and a performance in a widespread broadcast or movie format are two different things.

Actually the better and more exclusive the release, the more expensive the rights.

It seems to be this way in most parts of the world but I'm sure there may be some exceptions somewhere.

You must understand there are different types of rights - public performance, broadcast, licensing and even implied rights.

For example, I license some of my program presentations and there are very specific terms and guidelines and it excludes television or broadcast rights (except for specific media rights of performances of :12 or less), which is standard.

Sorry you don't agree with it but it is the only way for the creator to control rights and it's widespread release outside of the intended or community.
dearwiseone
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Quote:
On Apr 22, 2015, Mindpro wrote:
In reality, just because you purchase a DVD, book or release really, unless specifically specified, actually does not even allow you public performance rights.


Not sure where the legal base for that comes from? I don't agree. (unless of course you're talking about copyrighted script, trademarks, etc.)

Mindpro is kind of right. It CAN be legal for a creator to deny those rights (just words on paper), but having the legal base to enforce them is another matter. It depends on too many factors, including the language of the license for the particular script, routine, or effect and whether or not the purchaser was made aware of these rights (or signed a contract) prior to purchase. The type of airing on TV (documentary, live TV, public broadcasting, etc.) also affects whether broadcast or "performance" rights can be enforced.

I don't support what a lot of "creators" are doing with the whole TV rights thing, but they're free to put whatever they want in the text included with their trick. Again, not speaking about everyone, just the popular trend I'm seeing with so many effects put out these days.

For your particular case, you would need to consult a real lawyer in Germany. We can all give our opinions, but you should consult a legal professional in your country.

Hope that helps!
Kevin
TomBoleware
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I really don’t think that it is ‘legal’ to change things AFTER the sale. Only magicians believe that.Smile

Unless you were told this before the purchase you have every right to a refund. Best to ask the one you
brought from and if he says no, ask for your money back.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

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Gerry Walkowski
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The same thing happened with David Copperfield years ago with Terry Seabrooke's Bill in Wallet routine.

Apparently, Terry's routine said "No TV rights granted." It's possible David used this on one of his TV specials. (I could be wrong here, as it was ages ago.) No matter what, though, I know David used Terry's routine in one of his touring shows.

The good news is that David and Terry talked and seemed to work things out.

Gerry
Joe S.
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Theory is one thing (YES... they can withhold TV rights), but reality is another.

Make no mistake... if you perform this trick on TV, you are in the legal (and I would argue, moral) wrong. However, it is then up to the creator to sue you. If they do, they can sue you in their jurisdiction. You'd have to either settle the claim or appear in their country at court. This gets expensive fast. Not showing means you automatically lose in many courts.

But would they do this? Most wouldn't, but would instead simply bash you on forums, or give you a bad Yelp review, etc. For some people, this also isn't worth the headache. Magic is a small world, and just a few burned bridges can have major consequences.

My honest advice would be to contact this person, explain that you'd LOVE to perform their trick, and see if there's anything you can work out. I ALWAYS do this... even when the trick hasn't held any rights back. It's a great way to make friends with some big names, believe it or not. Smile

If they tell you no, then you already know the right thing to do.
Joe
Joe Skilton
Skip Way
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RIGHTS GRANTED UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW

The U.S. Copyright Act grants certain exclusive rights to the owner of a copyright in a work. These exclusive rights are different from the rights given to a person who merely owns a copy of the work. For example, when a person purchases a book at a bookstore, they have received a property right in a copy of a copyrighted work (namely, the book). The book owner may then resell the book, or even destroy it, since they own the book. However, the book's owner did not receive any copyright rights when they purchased the book. All copyright rights are held by the book's author until the author specifically transfers them. Consequently, the book owner may not make any copies of the book, since the right to copy a work is one of the exclusive rights granted under the Copyright Act. This distinction allows a copyright owner to sell copies of a work, or even the original work itself (such as a sculpture), without forfeiting her rights under the Copyright Act.

The Copyright Act grants five rights to a copyright owner, which are described in more detail below.

the right to reproduce the copyrighted work
the right to prepare derivative works based upon the work
the right to distribute copies of the work to the public
the right to perform the copyrighted work publicly
the right to display the copyrighted work publicly
These rights are not without limit, however, as they are specifically limited by "fair use" and several other specific limitations set forth in the Copyright Act.

PUBLIC PERFORMANCE

The public performance right allows the copyright holder to control the public performance of certain copyrighted works. The scope of the performance right is limited to the following types of works:
literary works,
musical works,
dramatic works,
choreographic works,
pantomimes,
motion pictures, and
audio visual works.

Magic performances and scripts generally fall under Dramatic Works.

Under the public performance right, a copyright holder is allowed to control when the work is performed "publicly." A performance is considered "public" when the work is performed in a "place open to the public or at a place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances are gathered." A performance is also considered to be public if it is transmitted to multiple locations, such as through television and radio. Thus, it would be a violation of the public performance right in a motion picture to rent a video and to show it in a public park or theater without obtaining a license from the copyright holder. In contrast, the performance of the video on a home TV where friends and family are gathered would not be considered a "public" performance and would not be prohibited under the Copyright Act.

As Joe stated, this protection is only as good and effective as the copyright holders willingness and financial ability to pursue the breech through the legal system. Copyright law varies from country to country.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

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Mindpro
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Right, now isn't that exact;y what I said in the first place? Thanks for posting this, very nice.
Skip Way
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Exactly, MP ... But, some folks don't believe it until a viable source is quoted ... And even then ... Good call.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

Magic Youth Raleigh - RaleighMagicClub.org
TomBoleware
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My point was: Normally a seller will make you aware of the limitations on licensed products before the purchase, not after it.
You certainly have a right to a refund if they don’t. Otherwise they should be called out and exposed for what they really are. Smile

The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the subject matter of the writing. For example, a description of a magic prop could be copyrighted,
but this would only prevent others from copying the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description of their own or from making and using
the prop. You need a patent to protect the prop, and very few magic props are patented.

Still I agree, it's best to just always ask the person you bought it from.

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Tim Friday
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I remember once a well known magic creator posting on facebook about a young man who performed one of his effects on Ellen without permission. The creator was upset at the performer and at the Ellen show, I believe he had a right to feel upset. A number of magicians commented on his post agreeing with his indignation. I believe I remember the creator actually said in his post if the performer had asked him he would have given him permission and given him some pointers to help him prepare for the tv appearance. The effect in question was a type of "stand up monte" effect.

One thing I noticed in your original post that I am surprised no one has commented on - the fact that you are getting paid to do a TV appearance. Most tv appearances I have heard of you do not get paid. To my knowledge magicians do not get paid to go on news shows, Ellen or any of the major late shows (not 100% sure).

The fact you are getting paid when most tv appearances do not pay, then I hope you will do the right thing and contact the creator...

There are too many benefits from a tv appearance such as having a professionally shot clip you can use for future promo, having a tv credit, and just the elated feeling from the whole process - it would be a shame to have it all tainted just because you did not do your due diligence.
Memory-Jah
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I did contact sansmind a couple days ago and half a ****storm appeared on the magic Café. Check out the thread for their new effect: Imprint the last two sites or so, there is the result of that.
"Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible." - Count Elmsley
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Apr 26, 2015, Tim Friday wrote:

One thing I noticed in your original post that I am surprised no one has commented on - the fact that you are getting paid to do a TV appearance. Most tv appearances I have heard of you do not get paid. To my knowledge magicians do not get paid to go on news shows, Ellen or any of the major late shows (not 100% sure).

The fact you are getting paid when most tv appearances do not pay, then I hope you will do the right thing and contact the creator...


This may not be an entirely true sentiment as some television appearances do pay scale. Typically not news programs or news-based talkshows, but others do pay union scale. There are many variables involved but it can happen at least here in the states. I remember on one t.v. show I was not only paid scale, but I received $78 as a wardrobe allowance for wearing my own clothes on camera. I remember many famous performers not cashing their first check for appearing on The Tonight Show and keeping it for a keepsake.
Stucky
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I would like to see an actual lawyer come in here and inform us. Copy and pasting is one thing but a yes or no is more preferrable.
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sirbrad
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Yeah many of these sellers do not state that up front, they stick you with it after you buy it which should not be legal. I don't see what the issue is though they want your money but yet don't you want you performing it. Do they honestly think people want to just buy the effect to watch it and just learn the secret and tha is it? Maybe some do but not working professionals. Even David Penn made fun of some of these idiots on the WPR, "You buy it but you can't do it!" I would never buy a thing from these morons and would get a refund quickly otherwise I perform it when and where I want. I don't do TV shows anyway most of the time.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 26, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
My point was: Normally a seller will make you aware of the limitations on licensed products before the purchase, not after it.
You certainly have a right to a refund if they don’t. Otherwise they should be called out and exposed for what they really are. Smile

Tom


You keep saying things like "right" or what not. You do understand that this term means something different in Germany than it does in the United States right?

People say stuff like this as if the United States is the only country on the planet for pity sake. You have no idea, he may very well have NO rights. Heck he bought it from a guy in another country than his own! Talking like a lawyer does not make one a lawyer.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
sirbrad
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I am sure these idiots would never know anyway as the odds of someone doing that particular effect on a big show are slim. Also even more stupid is that are affecting their sales, as I have bought effects that I have seen on Ellen and other TV shows.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
Dannydoyle
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Yea that is the ironic part. Probably the BEST sales tool is it being done on TV and other magicians seeing it!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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