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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Happy May Day! (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"?


I think I see more racism than you do in this society, since, if I recall correctly, your definition of racism specifically excludes any actions or beliefs of minorities, or that operate to the detriment of whites.

But while I agree wholeheartedly that racism is "in the room," I disagree with whether or not it's an elephant. I think that for the most part, people of any race who work hard and make good choices will probably do ok. I agree that some people, by the luck of their birth, will have it a lot easier than others. But one thing making a lot of money lets you do - rightly, IMO - is make your kids' lives easier than yours was.

A FAR bigger problem in general than racism is the systematic ingraining of an external locus of control into certain segments of the population by various others for various reasons. IMO, it's neither surprising nor coincidental that I can't name an Asian Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, on the one hand, and that roughly 30% of the students at UCLA, for instance, are Asian or Asian-American. Asians and Asian-Americans have, in many respects, faced as much or more racism more recently than other racial minorities, but that tends to get brushed aside by people who want to infer opportunities from results, i.e. their general success as a group essentially punishes them on an individual level ("Well, their situation can't be THAT bad; look how well so many of them are doing"). But that's what happens when group rights and group identity politics carries the day. It's OK in many intellectual circles, for instance, to discriminate against individual Asian students, because "we have enough Asians." Groups don't suffer from racism; individuals do. And when they tell you they don't - that they're doing just fine - that's just a symptom or just how bad it is - they're so victimized, they don't even see themselves as victims. Well, by God, we'd better fix THAT. If it didn't do such an amazing disservice to them, it'd be funny. that's all without getting into the "soft bigotry of low expectations," which is a terrible thing in its own right.

I'm more inclined to agree wit you about class differences. To the extent that there's a serious color problem in the USA, IMO the relevant colors are "green" and "no green." But if you're on the page that claims that Barack Obama's and Will Smith's and Chris Rock's kids need more of a leg up than the kids of some white Appalaichain coal miner because the latter are privileged members of a group that happens to do better on balance, then forget the same page...we're not even on the same book or in the same library, and IMO you're not only focusing on an "elephant" the size of a cat, you're missing the brontosaurus.

But I certainly am not disagreeing with the proposition that "racism in the USA still exists in the 21st century."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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To expand and clarify, I think that what happened in Baltimore is a tragedy and almost certainly a crime, and if it is, I'd like to see those involved punished to the fullest extent of the law. But IMO, the far bigger problem in inner-city Baltimore isn't stories like Freddie Gray's, which get everyone up in arms; it's the tens of thousands of kids who will drop out of school, have kids they can't afford, commit crimes and either end up in jail or prison or get arrest records that will keep them from getting jobs...all because they've been wrongly convinced that it doesn't matter what choices they make - they're screwed anyway.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicfish
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Quote:
On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"?


I think I see more racism than you do in this society, since, if I recall correctly, your definition of racism specifically excludes any actions or beliefs of minorities, or that operate to the detriment of whites.

But while I agree wholeheartedly that racism is "in the room," I disagree with whether or not it's an elephant. I think that for the most part, people of any race who work hard and make good choices will probably do ok. I agree that some people, by the luck of their birth, will have it a lot easier than others. But one thing making a lot of money lets you do - rightly, IMO - is make your kids' lives easier than yours was.

A FAR bigger problem in general than racism is the systematic ingraining of an external locus of control into certain segments of the population by various others for various reasons. IMO, it's neither surprising nor coincidental that I can't name an Asian Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, on the one hand, and that roughly 30% of the students at UCLA, for instance, are Asian or Asian-American. Asians and Asian-Americans have, in many respects, faced as much or more racism more recently than other racial minorities, but that tends to get brushed aside by people who want to infer opportunities from results, i.e. their general success as a group essentially punishes them on an individual level ("Well, their situation can't be THAT bad; look how well so many of them are doing"). But that's what happens when group rights and group identity politics carries the day. It's OK in many intellectual circles, for instance, to discriminate against individual Asian students, because "we have enough Asians." Groups don't suffer from racism; individuals do. And when they tell you they don't - that they're doing just fine - that's just a symptom or just how bad it is - they're so victimized, they don't even see themselves as victims. Well, by God, we'd better fix THAT. If it didn't do such an amazing disservice to them, it'd be funny. that's all without getting into the "soft bigotry of low expectations," which is a terrible thing in its own right.

I'm more inclined to agree wit you about class differences. To the extent that there's a serious color problem in the USA, IMO the relevant colors are "green" and "no green." But if you're on the page that claims that Barack Obama's and Will Smith's and Chris Rock's kids need more of a leg up than the kids of some white Appalaichain coal miner because the latter are privileged members of a group that happens to do better on balance, then forget the same page...we're not even on the same book or in the same library, and IMO you're not only focusing on an "elephant" the size of a cat, you're missing the brontosaurus.

But I certainly am not disagreeing with the proposition that "racism in the USA still exists in the 21st century."

When you say Asian do you mean Indians? Arabs? Orientals? Russians? Just looking for clarification to better understand your interesting post.
LobowolfXXX
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The classification they use is "Asian/Pacific Islander." There doesn't seem to be a separate classification for other groups from Asia, but there is an "international" classification which may include students from the Middle East. I teach a couple of classes on campus, and from a visual inspection (and having attended law school there) I can tell you that most UCLA students from Asia are more specifically from the Orient, but there are quite a few East Asians there, too; I just don't know if the latter are called "Asian" in their demographic list, or "international" or something else.

At any rate, if you only counted the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean students on campus, I have no doubt you'd find that they disproportionately represent the entire continent.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicfish
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Thanks Lobo.
rockwall
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Celebrate it while you can.

Experts predict robots will take over 30% of our jobs by 2025

http://www.businessinsider.com/experts-p......s-2015-5
tommy
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What jobs?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Bob1Dog
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Do they have retired robots?
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about? Smile

My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums.
Destiny
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Quote:
On May 3, 2015, Bob1Dog wrote:
Do they have retired robots?


I don't intend retiring so I watch episodes of Futurama as research on what to expect.
Intrepid
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Quote:
On May 3, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Celebrate it while you can.

Experts predict robots will take over 30% of our jobs by 2025

http://www.businessinsider.com/experts-p......s-2015-5


Is this a good thing or a bad thing? The article compares it to the advent of the machine age 200 years ago.
Bob
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