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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » 3 Fly help. (13 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bill Hegbli
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Quote:
On Jun 23, 2015, hackmonkey wrote:
Nice routine Vinny, shade of the original 3 Fly III I mentioned in the first post, very smooth. Any suggestions on a 3 coin appearance to start with?


If you are doing close up at a table, there is no better routine to produce 3 coins then Jerry Andrus Miser's Miracle. It is a booklet, Coins are produced from a playing card that is being torn up. Fist in half, and silver dollar appears from between the half cards, then torn into quarters, and another silver dollar appears from between the quarter sections. Finally, a silver dollar appears from between the second quarter pieces.

Then go into your 3 Fly routine.

http://www.chazpro.com/misers-miracle-by-jerry-andrus/
Ray Haining
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Quote:
On Jul 1, 2015, Bill Hegbli wrote:

If you are doing close up at a table, there is no better routine to produce 3 coins then [sic] Jerry Andrus Miser's Miracle.


I believe Miser's Miracle is the production of four silver dollars, the last one being produced from pieces smaller than the silver dollar itself.
David Neighbors
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Yea Have seen Him do it a few times That it! Smile
David Neighbors



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Mb217
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Nice to watch an old master perform… Smile

*Check at the 38:00 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_xpO3vzVIY
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at www.VinnyMarini.com Smile

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funsway
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Sankey's "Mr.Clean Coins Across" should be considered, even though it is too "angle restrictive" for many venues.

When the setting is right, though, it might be nice to have on reserve -- especially for magicians in the audience.

I am not suggesting it is "better than" -- just other than and very impactful

Several of the effects on his "Coin Magic" DVD can be integrated into other 3Fly an "Across" routines,
such as several "back and forth" techniques (though my SwayOn is better than PointTransfer).

You do not have to pick up his presentation style, however Smile
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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hackmonkey
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I like the look of the misers miracle, also as it uses cards asa segway without it being a card trick. It seism natural to come back to the cards later, with out just pulling out a deck of cards. I will look into it, Smile

Thanks for all the help and ideas guys, this is why I love the Café.
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Michael Rubinstein
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Might want to look at my Retro Fly, off volume one of the New York Coin Magic Seminar DVD. No gaffs, end clean, original moves. Volume one also contains three fly routines by Latta and Harbottle.
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Magician Shaun
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I think you should check out Kainoa's work. He has a book called Trifectas and it is a deep study of the 3 fly plot both gaffed and ungaffed but requires that you have have a few other books to reference to really get the most out of it.

I also recommend Kainoa's Coins on Edge and Cointopia.

Eric Jones has a nice DVD called Mirage Et Trois.
Zee
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My favorite 3 fly is Gary Jones's from his DVD, Flying Tonight. It is whole routine. From producing three coins to vanishing all three coins. A well constructed, lovely routine.


Zee
hackmonkey
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I think I might retro-fly as that DVD also has more routines.

The Harbottle stuff I will probably check out at a later date. But I think a friend has the coins on edge Booklet?

Flying tonight sounds EXACTLY what I'm looking for!
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jamo425
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Id recommend either reed mcclintock's "scream fly" off of his coin ovations dvd. it does require a shell, but its a nice and clean routine.

if you arent familiar with ponta the smith's 3 fly, id recommend that. its impromptu, although there are a couple moves that are a bit knacky. also, this should be a given.. but sick is just a great dvd to have in general for anyone that does coin magic. just know that his material may not be the best for beginners.

lastly, probably my favorite 3 fly routine that I really never see anyone mention.. ryu-ka's 3 fly routine is awesome and its impromptu. its not the easiest routine out there, but it looks beautiful when done well. also, the sleights used in this routine make this probably the most original 3 fly routine I've ever seen so far. it can be found on the "emperor" dvd (available at most magic dealers). it consists of half card and half coin magic. some really great stuff on that dvd, his one coin routine looks ridiculous.

hope this helps
Zee
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Quote:
On Jul 21, 2015, jamo425 wrote:
if you arent familiar with ponta the smith's 3 fly, id recommend that. its impromptu,
lastly, probably my favorite 3 fly routine that I really never see anyone mention.. ryu-ka's 3 fly routine is awesome and its impromptu.



I don't think not using [ means it is impromptu. You still have to have one more thing, aren't you? I thought impromptu literally means you do it without any preparation, but I don't think anyone does 3 Fly with quarters or new dollar coins; I think everyone usually uses dollar size coins or at least half dollars, so if you are going to have non-gimmick version in your pocket everyday, why don't you just carry a [ and three coins? It is much cleaner.

Ryu-Ka is a great friend of mine, but I don't think the one he thought in Emperor is any good, and I certainly do not recommend it for anyone(Emperor is a great DVD and it is worth watching. I don't like two coin routines and one card routine, which I am not going to mention what they are, but everything else is fantastic). He has another version of 3 Fly, which he did not released yet, and it is the most incredible 3 Fly I have ever seen. I had dream of make all three coins jump from one hand to another at the same time, but I never worked it out, but he actually does that in one of his 3 Fly routine. He also has his version of coin through glass which is the most visual one I have ever seen. He doesn't use [ for these routines, and that is what makes it so beautiful. He was kind enough to teach me many of his stuff, and it was mind blowing. His approach to coin magic is simple yet innovative. I asked him to put out his routines several times, but he refused it.


Zee
funsway
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Quote:
On Jul 21, 2015, Zee wrote:

You still have to have one more thing, aren't you? I thought impromptu literally means you do it without any preparation, but I don't think anyone does 3 Fly with quarters or new dollar coins; I think everyone usually uses dollar size coins or at least half dollars, so if you are going to have non-gimmick version in your pocket everyday, why don't you just carry a [ and three coins? It is much cleaner.
Zee


There are several approaches available using not 'extra' or gaff. I agree on what 'impromptu' should mean, but most magicians include "extemporaneous" as well, i.e. being prepared.

The original concept of 3Fly as up in front of your face, one-at-a-time visual transportation has apparently morphed into any 'coins across' effect done in the hands with 3 coins in stead of the traditional 4.

If so, there are many effects with 'found objects' that would fit, and employ objects other than coins such as candy, stones, nuts and borrowed coins.

I wish that 3Fly was more aligned with Jonathan's creation and a different focus made for 'objects across' and the techniques involved.

My point is that either an 'extra' or gaff or [ is not a requirement.

See Sankey's Mexican Jumping coins as an example.
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hackmonkey
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In love this thread has had so many ideas/replies pop up! There's so much stuff out there it takes an army to find the right thing for you!

But let's not the this into a philosophy of what is and is not a 3fly!
I agree 3fly has to use coins and should have the visual effect of the coins jumping one at a time to the other hand. I could maybe stretch to a two at once or all three jumping back at the end! These are 'variations'.
I feel it doesn't matter if three or four coins are used or a shell also, also long as it appears as three to the spectator.

If it appears as 4 or more and the coins jump to a spectators hand or it uses other objects, or even if the coins at not held at the finger tips. Then this is an 'across' effect.

3fly for me is the modern term for Johnathon Townsend's 'finger tip' coins across.
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Zee
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Quote:
On Jul 22, 2015, funsway wrote:
My point is that either an 'extra' or gaff or [ is not a requirement.


3Fly should be 3 coins jump from fingertips to fingertips. If you are covering coins in any ways, then it is not a 3 Fly, it is a coins across routine. I consider 3 fly and coins across as two totally different routines. If no extra coin nor [ is used, I don't think it is possible to perform three fly since you have to get one-ahead, but if you do that, it instantly changes into a coins across routine instead of 3 fly.

Zee
funsway
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I would agree, Zee, within the limitation of "fingertips" -- but don't think many of the offered effects offered today as "3Fly" hold to that standard.

The OP may be looking for an alternative to the original 3Fly and not a refinement -- maybe even reasons not to perform the effect at all.

So, not disagreeing with what 3Fly "should be," but consider ...

I have always felt that having the hands/fingers repeatedly touch is a drawback to the effect and have played with some alternatives.
In discussing these with Jonathan he did not say, 'but then it isn't 3Fly."
When we discussed performing the effect at waist level he did not say, "nope - no longer 3Fly."

What is it that the spectator will remember or relate to a friend? "coins magically jumping for hand to hand" or "he covered the coins more than 50%" or "a coin jumped back and forth -- no, there were several."

What is critical is the illusion of a coin moving rathe than vanishing and then reappearing. This "Transportation Illusion" has psychological factors and timing issues beyond the visibility or number of coins.

and, no, you do not have to get "one ahead" to create that illusion -- it is just easier.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Zee
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Quote:
On Jul 23, 2015, funsway wrote:

In discussing these with Jonathan he did not say, 'but then it isn't 3Fly."
When we discussed performing the effect at waist level he did not say, "nope - no longer 3Fly."

What is it that the spectator will remember or relate to a friend? "coins magically jumping for hand to hand" or "he covered the coins more than 50%" or "a coin jumped back and forth -- no, there were several."


I did not say performing 3 Fly on waist level makes it no longer a 3 Fly routine, but I rather said if coins are held in fists instead of fingertips, then it is no longer a 3 Fly. We should not mix 3 Fly routine and Coins Across routine together. 3 Fly is 3 Fly, coins should not be held in fists; as soon as coins are held in fists, then it becomes coins across.

And when if you actually see/observe layman describe 3 Fly and coins across, you can see the difference. If they had seen Coins Across, then they might tell their friends "He went like this, and coins jumped to another", and they are actually mimicking coins across movements(which is holding two fists in front of them and vividly describe what happened). If they are describing 3 Fly, they will say" He held coins on his finger tips and suddenly it went to another hand", and they are again, mimicking 3 Fly routine moves(holding two hands in front of their eyes and describe exactly what they saw). Spectators will definitely differentiate 3 Fly and Coins Across.

Even today, when I am taking a walk in my town, some random people come up to me and ask me, "Hey, you are that magician right? Can you perform that coin teleporting trick?(holding two fists in front of them)" Or sometimes "Can you make a coin go into my hand?(holding only fist in front of them. Last phase of coins across)". And some people ask me "Can you perform that coins jumping from fingertips to another fingertips one?(mimicking 3 Fly motion)". Even in lay people's eyes, these two are almost completely different routines, so I think it is necessary to make clear understanding on which is which.


Zee
J-Mac
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I must agree with Zee here. Our magic effects - the foundational or classic ones in particular - certainly need to have some degree of categorization or system of nomenclature so that individual terms don’t encompass too wide an area. "Coins Across" is a good description that is self-explanatory. "3-Fly" is but one specific type of Coins Across effect. Some seem to be saying that 3-Fly is synonymous with Coins Across, which doesn’t make much sense in my opinion. Likewise with regard to the somewhat related discussion on Miser's Dream. Can't let it encompass too many variations of the original classic routine or the term becomes almost meaningless!

I realize that many will probably disagree with me on this, and that's fine as this is simply my opinion. (Although it also just happens to be the most important opinion on this - to me, of course! Smile )

Jim
funsway
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No, I agree as to what 3Fly should represent and the advantages of clarity on technique and definition.

I just fear that it is too late -- the term has already been mangled. Too many cooks who don't know which end of a knofe to hold or something ...

One problem is that a person desiring to sell a new effect or gimmick wants to piggyback on the success/popularity of 3Fy and cares little for purity of effect.

j-mac, isn't reducing terms to the point they are meaningless the objective of the oligarchy? Smile

How much easier life will be when common useful vocabulary is reduced to that of a drill sergeant. But, I digress ...

Zee -- I am agreeing with you, and am glad you are bringing up these points.

I especially like the though that if you were wandering around town "random people" might say anything intelligent at all.

If I were a true wizard I would blank out all cellphone and "feed" transmission within 100 ft of my person and just observe the amazing and astonishing things that occurred.

I disagree that most people would recognize the difference between the two types of presentation -- or care. Most would say, "Oh, you have spare change -- can I bum a cigarette?"

On another thread you said that you performed different effects in different towns because of the expectations there are different.
So, who are these "lay" people and how do you know what they think?

I guess I have missed out. In 60 years of performing I have never had a person say anything like, "fingertips to fingertips." Kudos to you for having received such a response to your performances.

Today, I will be happy if lay people can read the instructions on my Service Dog's harness that says, "Do not pet." Maybe I live in the wrong towns.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Zee
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Funsway,

I do quite a lot shows in my town and other towns, so even people from other towns have seen me performing or at least heard of me. I have hard time remembering people's face/name(and I am also terrible at directions), so I do not recognize any of those people; therefore, I call them random people since I do not recognize them.

And you are keep making metaphor/examples that are slightly off topic. My spectators remember and can tell differences between Twirl Change(The Pivot Color Change) and simple DL change(DL and put the top card... yeah). They do not know names but they describe Twirl change as "That thing you do when you do this(making shaking motions) and the card changes" and DL one is "You put the card on my hand and it changed". They do not generalize it as "The card changed"

Laypeople are just those do not have professional knowledge;they are not stupid. They certainly can and do tell differences between each routines. And it seems like you are not believing those statements I made before, but people actual ask me to do specific things. The way I know it is because they request me to do those things, and they explain what they are expecting with words and motions.

Without being offensive(I don't know how to euphemize it, so I am just going to say it, Please do not get offended), maybe you missed out those "specific comments" is because you do not put importance in your performances. I have seen a lot of performers just scheme through the routine without dramatically building up the effect. For example, when someone is performing coins across, he just closes his hands and a second later, he opens both hands.

What I do is(I use [ and it is basically David Roth's version but with some subtle handling changes), I secretly obtain a coin and have it in right hand CP(and no one knows about it). I show four coins in my left hand and very slowly close my left hand(At this point spectators should be quiet. Even if some of them are talking, some spectators will shush them) and explain that coins will travel one by one to another hand. I then have a dramatic pause(3 seconds or so) and stare at my left hand then slowly open left hand only. They only see three coins in my left hand, and I slowly look at my right hand and pause one or two seconds and then open it.

If I open two hands right away, spectators have to see two things at a time, and there is no dramatic build-ups, so effect is considerably getting weaker. By opening left hand first, I believe I make my spectators think "If the coin is gone from left hand, then it should be in his right hand as he explained, BUT there is no way!", and I allow them to have thousands of thoughts go through their mind and then I open my right hand for 'confirmation'.

I never downplay any of my effects, but I rather dramatize every single thing I do. I think that is what gets my effects and me remembered by spectators. And yes, I even do simple color changes with dramatic pause before it, so everyone is focused on my hand. Some people do these stuff on "off-beat" manner and do not emphasize this magical moment. Like they are in AGT; rushing through routines.

I never understood why many people say "it is very unlikely to get reactions from spectators like on those from David Blaine TV shows", because I almost always get those reactions. I tried to find out why and I think here is one hypothesis I came up with. Most magicians do not dramatize their routines. And they interrupt spectators before they react because they do not know when to stop talking(I go great details in this subject in my book which is not on the market yet).

It is straight from my book---

I have seen a lot of people say it is very unlikely to get reactions from spectators like in David Blaine’s TV shows, but I almost always get those kind of reactions when I am doing magic for lay people. Maybe because it depends on performer’s performance style and persona.

I am a firm believer of if a Mentalist/Magician is calmer, spectators’ reactions are louder. The best example I can give is, if comedian is laughing at his own joke, then audiences do not laugh, but if comedian just stay cool and deliver his punch lines, then audiences die from laughing. Most magicians and mentalists I have seen usually talk too much and ruins the magical moment for spectators and they miss their chance to scream out loud, and when they reacts afterwards, the reaction is much weaker. For example, after you have revealed an information, if you say ”Did I get it?” or ask any kinds of questions will make your participant to miss the moment to react because she has to answer you “yes”. So the best way to ensure maximum reaction is to sit back and stay quiet with a charming smile on your face after the revelation.


Zee
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