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funsway
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On Sep 5, 2015, jamo425 wrote:
of course a shell would be cleanest in that respect.


?? how about just using three coins? Nothing extra! Nothing to hide or get rid off.

Such routines lose flexibility, perhaps, which is why I prefer a gaff --

but if "cleanest" is important that don't use "anything extra."

Possibly this means that "clean" is not the most important factor in choosing method.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Zee
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Quote:
On Sep 5, 2015, jamo425 wrote:
keep us posted whenever things start coming out!


I will start a thread when DVDs are out. It will be another "sick" DVD for sure!!



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On Sep 6, 2015, funsway wrote:
Possibly this means that "clean" is not the most important factor in choosing method.


It feels like you are making somewhat invalid statements.. or somehow confusing statements. Although I don't know what to say about rest of other statements, I think Cleanness is the ultimate goal when it comes to method without altering the effect.



Zee
funsway
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What seems "invalid" to you? Or confusing? Then I can clarify as needed. Why can't you say something about the other couple of statements?

If ending clean is your desired goal then why use any gaff or extra coin? What do you mean by "clean?" -- maybe that is what is confusing.

Is it actually ending with only three coins and empty hands, or apparently doing so?

Your now saying, "without altering the effect" might suggest that the "ultimate goal" is the story told after by a spectator and not method at all.

So, to avoid confusion, please outline "the effect" you are using as a standard. Your view of "clean" might be correct within your new definition/restriction.

If "three coins in one hand transporting one-by-one to the other hand" is the standard then it can be performed "most cleanly" with no gaff or extra.

If you mean a mirror of a specific technique, then please specify which one of the dozens out there.

Can you do a 3Fly (by general definition) with no gaff or extra? If so, please explain why it is not "more clean" than a method using a gaff.
If you can't do one, then how can you compare?

To be more clear, I am not suggesting that using a "no gaff/extra" approach will be more magical, more entertaining or easier, etc. -- just addressing the concept of the value of "clean" in choosing an approach.

I prefer to use a T.U.C. myself for reasons explained in the book "T.U.C. Appreciation." One is having crippled hands. Another is being able to toss the coins around with both hands shown completely empty.

Another is transition into other effects. I would never perform any 3Fly as a "single effect," so the other effects that proceed and follow might also dictate method.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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Zee
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I wasn't intend to offend you. If you felt offended, then I am sorry.

You are keep saying performing 3 fly with only 3 coins and nothing else is clean. And that's what I consider "invalid" since if only 3 coins are used in 3 fly routine then it is either going to become a coins across routine or an actual magic.

What I meant by "without altering the effect" is to not change 3 fly into coins across. It has nothing to do with spectators telling stories.

And how is my standard of clean is new definition? My ultimate goal is to make my spectators cannot feel anything suspicious. Hmm.. That does restrict me a little bit. Some people are just doing things just hoping they can pull it off. I have to make sure everything I do does not raise any suspicion, so I cannot do many things others can do. And that is why I even spend years trying to perfect my retention vanish. I have to make sure my retention vanish look as natural as it can get.

I certainly cannot do 3 fly with only 3 coins, and that is why I stated before that using shell is the "cleanest" method FOR ME. I cannot compare it because I cannot compare a 3 fly routine and a coins across routine; we cannot compare two different things, can we? In my definition of 3 Fly, it is coins fly from fingertips to fingertips without cover. If coin is held in fist(out of sight), then it is coins across.

And I didn't know what to say about your previous post so I was confused by myself and I couldn't say something about rest of the statements. It wasn't like"ugh, I don't even want to talk to you." It was "Uhh.. What should I say... I don't know what to say..." kind of feeling.

My choice of 3 fly is Gary Jones's sxxxl version, which I think is very entertaining and "clean", because after each coin's appearance, participant can check each coin and there is nothing else to look for, and the magician is left clean at the end.

Zee
funsway
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Thanks for the clarification. If we use that strict definition of 3Fly then I agree that a exp [ is probably cleanest, but would defer to the effect that follows

Since Jonathan, who invented 3Fly allows for a broader definition I was using that.

When it comes to "which approach crates the greater experience of magic for an observer?" I am not sure.

The few times I have performed 3Fly as you describe the comments were "too fast" or "what happened?' -- which isn't very magical.

If participants are checking coins at every opportunity I would choose some effect where they had no desire to.

Just me, I guess. I don't want them to desire to check anything -- just wallow in the magic experience.

In the end each performer should do the approach they are most comfortable with. If "clean" is best for you, then clean it is. Smile
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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jamo425
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There will always be debate amongst the whole shell vs soh thing. in my opinion I think that as long as you can clearly display 3 coins at the beginning and end, and have the ability to hand things out if need be, I would consider that clean enough. convincing the spectator that there are only 3 coins in play, is what makes the routine magical (and of course the visual nature of the routine). but your handling of the effect can also make or break that. I feel like a lot of the "standard" moves for 3 fly always seemed a bit shady to me, and though they may fly by many lay people, all it takes is a keen eye or a perceptive spectator to notice the discrepancies to kill your "cleanliness". actually how you shuttle the coins from hand to hand can be just about as important as cleanly displaying only 3 coins at the beginning and end.

I don't think letting the spectator examine the coins is all that important. it can be a plus at times to let them check things out even if they don't ask, but I think a lot of magicians put too much emphasis on handing things out to be examined in general. in my opinion, as long as you CAN hand the props out to be examined if need be, is more important. at the beginning, I like to just have a clean display of the 3 coins, although I could hand them out at the beginning if I wanted to, more times than not I don't bother. on the other hand, I more times than not hand out the coins at the end because after people see the effect, if you did your job correctly, the only thing the spectator should be thinking is that they have to be "trick" coins, or that they have witnessed real magic and they have no other explanation. you have to remember people don't know what's going to happen at the start, so examining is not as important as to after they have just seen something impossible happen.

I will post my 3 fly routine when I get around to it, but I use an extra instead of a shell, and I think the routine is just as clean if not more so than any routine w/ a shell at that I've seen. not to toot my own horn, and not to say there are shelled routines out there that are cleaner of course. but I use very clean displays throughout the routine to show that there are only 3 coins. you'll see what I mean when I post it, and I'm looking forward to the feedback especially because you can say the handling I use is very unconventional cause I use some of my own original sleights that I've developed instead of the standard moves. I don't know if they are completely original, but I haven't seen anyone use the sleights, and I did come up with them independently. anyway, excuse me for getting side tracked but my point being that it is possible to have a 3 fly routine with an extra coin, be just as clean as one with a shell. all depends on how you handle it.

when I post my routine you'll see what I'm talking about. zee, if you could imagine a little more polished version of ryu-ka's 3 fly routine in emperor, or at least a more polished/cleaner variation in my opinion, then you should have a decent idea as to what my routine looks like and what I'm talking about. like I said before, I took a lot of inspiration from that routine, especially his "move" which I'm sure your familiar with (which actually allows for such a clean display). but credit will definitely be due to him. when I get some time off from work I'll try to record it so you can see what I mean. hopefully every one will like it.
Moondragon1
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I am really looking forward to this janmo425! I would love to see such a beautiful and clean 3fly that uses the extra coin. I have been developing my own version that I think is very magical and clean utilizing an E]. The most recent addition was inspiration from David Gabay's "Sanchez fly". Smile Which I must say is a very clean and beautiful rendition of 3fly with a ]. I'm not saying mine is better but I do find it a little cleaner imho!:-) I will post a video soon and let you all decide for your selves. All respect and love to David Gabay for the move that is the meat of my routine. I will share it soon.... And if you know the "move" I know you will be able to figure out the rest.
Until then.
Happy magic my friend.
-William
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A few years ago Eric Jones posted that showing the hands empty before and after the routine was sufficient proof for 3-Fly routines. He also said that he found most spectators claimed that they believed an extra coin was being used in 3-Fly routines, and that was based on logic.

I tend to agree with him on both statements. That would make 3-Fly with a shell - or other similar gaffs such as those used in U3F and Come Fly With Me - the cleanest method, as long as you can show your hands as otherwise empty.

Thanks!

Jim
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I totally... mostly... agree with you Jim! Smile And obviously with you Eric. ;-) Well said Jim.
I still must believe though, one who has the right tequeniques and skills in s.o.h. can show the hands free of an extra coin before and after as well. I am no master at s.o.h. but am getting very good imo. I still haven't figured out the cleanest way to hide the extra without ditching it. But I do believe it to be possible! Lol, I would love to see some routines from magicians who are performing like this. I understand that most of us are familiar with the routines presented to us by the "greats" and that these routines are always at least a little bit dodggy, and/ or not as cleasn as clean can be. Though the routines brought forth to this point are phenomenal, I do believe that in the future we will be seeing even more refined and pure presentations. We stand on the shoulders of Great magicians after all, and eventually others will be standing on ours. Their light shining on our archaic way of doing things yet enlivening our world from the inspiration gathered from times past.
I'm just saying. ;-)
I would love to see a 3fly routine with an extra coin that is absolutely open, free, and clean as clean can be!
I know it will come. In my lifetime or in another.
:-)
Cheers my friends,
-Billy MÖndragon
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Here's the thread I was talking about: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=202

Mostly the interplay between Eric Jones and KirkG. Two very different and interesting beliefs on the matter of the need to show "clean hands" throughout a 3-Fly routine as opposed to just showing them at the beginning and end. Also, spectators' knowledge of an extra coin in play.

Jim
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Thanks moondragon I look forward to posting it. I have put a lot of work into this routine and as I said before was based off of what was imo a great 3 fly routine done by ryu ka. both his and my routine aren't the easiest to perform, mine is a bit more sleight heavy and requires some knacky moves, but that is the kind of soh that I love to do. I hope everyone will enjoy it when I post it, and I look forward to seeing yours as well.

I'm not against the use of a [ in 3fly of any routine for that matter. for me, if using a gaff makes the routine more magical, cleaner, more impossible ect. then why not use it. I used to be somewhat of a purist until I started learning about some of the beautiful magic made possible because of a gaff. so far I just have not put in the time to learn a 3fly routine done with a [ and am more focused on the one I have developed. but I personally believe that gaffs should not be used as a crutch of any kind, but should beused in a routine because that is the best method to accomplish your desires outcome. I think every magician should put in the time to develop their soh skill with whatever medium they are using (cards, coins, rings ect.).

but in regards to cleanliness, I've already shared my two cents earlier. id just like to add that I agree with erics theory on being clean before and after the effect, similar to what I said before. but also id like to add that a theory came to mind that can also be applied to this. its been mentioned a couple times but its that most of the times lay people tend to retain most of the information from the beginning and end of a routine. I remembered this after watching imagination coins by garrett thomas. he said the story that was told back to other people after performing the effect was "I had a coin in my hand, then closed my hand, and when I opened it the coin was gone. then I closed and opened it again and it reappeared". even though 4 coins are used in that effect, that's the information that was retained. arguably, the same principle can be applied here with cleanliness.
Moondragon1
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Ha-ha I love that story! It is true jamo.

I agree with you on all of your points.... I guess that needs not be said here, but I'm saying it any way. I also wanted to mention that advanced heavy soh tends to make some things as magical or more so than using a gaff. One thing that I have got to say about the in between part of the routine that is often forgotten in 3fly routines and other routines for that matter, is to slow down ( not you specifically, but all of us.) Let the first coin register. Let the second maybe linger a bit longer let them absorb the magic that has just happened... Especially if you can show the hands clean at this point. This is by no means necessary to have great impact, but often times it can give them time to second guess their assumptions and appreciate the last phase that much more.

Cheers all!
:-)
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I posted something on the "Nothing up my sleeve" forum that could relate to this discussion (Romancing ...)

In addition, consider that it is not necessary to have the extra coin in play during the entire routine and that any vanish need not come at the end.

It is more critical to be able to show only three coins in the two hands at several times during the effect -- not "apparently show" -- actually show.

This means the extra must be "Idled" and taken out of play, then added when necessary.

In the described effect the coins to be used are selected by a spectator and handed back at the end as if borrowed-- no need for "examine."

Additionally, before the final phase the coins are handled to a spectator and they place them back on your palms (one on left, two on right)

there is no readjustment or hands touching or Sh***le or B**k-P**m -- just a clean transport of the last coin.

You just have to think completely out of the box rather than trying to find a better vanish or palming method.

The only thing important is the story told after of what the spectator thinks they saw and experienced.

No video -- and never will be.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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J-Mac
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That sounds great Ken... however I can't think of many - if any - 3-Fly routines that meet your conditions as stated. I realize that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. But it sure hints at that! The closest I can think of at a moment's notice is the bluff vanish at the end of some routines.

Jim
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J-mac -- I can perform the effect described at the end of the other posting -- just am not sure that trying for that level of purity makes any difference to a lay audience.

Trying to achieve an idealistic standard has value, but so does orchestrating the conditions under which anything you do will seem magical.

Your example is right on! A pseudo pass can support an impossible vanish, but only if the observer "sees" the coin fall from one hand to the other.
This relies both an the Predictive Vision psychological ploy AND having already executed an actual drop to establish a pattern.

Most 3Fly presentation occur too quickly for such ploys to be useful. I am also using "3Fly" in its broader sense that allows for a closed hand.

There is a question of whether 3 coins or 4 coins is better for a Transportation effect. The key is in audience Expectations and a balance of Anticipation and Surprise.

I would rarely do a "perfect" 3Fly type effect -- but would have it in reserve should the perfect moment arise.

I don't refer here to the "too perfect theory," but to the ability to capture and sustain audience focus and appreciation.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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jamo425
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All in all, unless you can achieve such perfect 3 fly effect where there would be no shuttling whatsoever, I think at some point you will have to sacrifice something. even using a ] you still have to nest and unest appropriately and shuttle just as you would have to with an extra. only difference being that at certain points you can show 3 coins cleanly in a literal sense. I agree with your point though about what the spectator experiences. I personally try to balance everything as much as possible (clean, visual, fair ect.). but ultimately that's what really matters, what they experience, to make the routine as strong and magical as possible. it depends on your audience as well, the people trying to burn you would probably benefit more from having the conviction of there being 3 coins and only 3 coins. others just trying to sit back and enjoy might benefit more towards having the transit of the coins being as visual as possible. some might want to see that clean palm open fingers spread display, others might be thinking" alright we get it, just get on with it..". you never know. are you going to be performing for magicians or a lay audience who may have never even seen a coin trick in their life?

point being this stuff is a matter of personal preference and these are things that only magicians worry about. a lot of times I think its easy for us magicians to lose perspective of what the spectator thinks and how they see things. some times it can help to stop thinking like a magician for a moment. imo, I believe we should go with whatever handling/method that will facilitate the strongest reaction and that makes the effect as magical as possible. hopefully we are all here to help each other do that. there will always be debate amongst us as to what's best, but I think the true answers lie in our spectators mind.. and how much you fried it.
Moondragon1
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Well said my friend:-)
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This discussion has actually been quite informative. And it has been fun to hear everyones ideas and opinions. I have an Idea to maybe take this to the next level. May I suggest a fun little excercise?
I was thinking of ways we can make this more informative and fun for us here and for future subscribers.
I was thinking.... How about we see how many unique and personal 3fly videos we can get posted on here. I'm talking routines that we have come up with on our own... Of course with inspiration from other artists being totally excepted. Just not ones that we can see just about any where. Ie.... U3f, come fly with me, Sanchez, Daryl's 3fly iii, phlye etc...
I think it will be fun to compare and see what new ideas are manifesting around the globe.
This forum is about magicians helping magicians, am I right?
I will post a video as soon as I can. I hope and look forward to seeing what you guys have been working on/ come up with.
If you feel secretive, don't worry, I don't NEED to see your routine. Keep it to your self.... This is for those of us who want to improve our magic, make friends, and share what we have learned. Ultimately making this world a more magical place.
Peace:-)
Moondragon1
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I realise after thinking over what I have just wrote, people should of course post videos of their most inspiring 3fly routines, even if we may think they are easily accessible and well known to the magical community. Chances are that they are not well known nor accessible to many. Sorry about my ignorance friends. I would love to see all 3fly routines that this world has to offer posted here, that we can garner new ideas and inspiration, decipher new techniques, and that together we can bring greater and greater resolution to this classic, magical effect.
Cheers
funsway
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Your enthusiasm is great and it would be "fun" -- but there may be some problems.

There are reasons to not post videos that have nothing to do with secrecy. Here are some objections that have been posted over the years:

a video of an effect does not correctly represent what a spectator would experience in a live performance.

a video is static and does not allow for what came before or after.

a video can be replayed many times and dilute anticipation and surprise components.

lighting and perspective may not be equal between videos and bias choices.

a camera doe snot allow for misdirection and psychological ploys.

any timing is not responsive to audience attention and focus.

any of these could lead an observer to prefer an observed effect for the wrong reasons.

Video instructions can be a valuable learning tool, especially when combined with written theory and stepped instructions, but ...

they fail to provide many of the elements essential to creating "an experience of real magic."

I cannot shoot good videos (crippled hands and blind wife) and have no intention of posting a bad video. I tis well known that I readily hare effects and methods with people on the Café whio

1) give me reason why they need it,
2) commitment to providing feedback on the instructions and any performance of the effect.

Yet, I will not provide a video of an effect in order to convince someone they should play with it.

Magic happens in the mind of the spectator and is transferred, to some extent, from the mind of the performer.

If the magician cannot visualize the effect in their mind, role play it from different perspectives and prepare for potential glitches,
then how can they expect a spectator to have a visualization in their own mind?

On top of that, they are "future subscribers" who will watch a video and attempt to perform it with no understanding of the subtleties involved or importance of small steps in the routine --
and thereby ruin the effect for the serious performer. Most exposure of effects is from poor performers. Why would we wish to support that?

Just opinions, of course. Just realize that choosing "best 3Fly" by watching submitted videos may miss out on much of what is available.

I have three different Coins Across routines practiced at all times -- and will select the one to perform based on setting and audience.

One of these would fail if a video camera was on because of the trust involved.

So, I would be interested in learning different approaches based on audience perception. Just please do not make posting a video a requirement.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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