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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Bob, but isn't his stoicism based on his belief that not only would France be reborn but also that he would be reborn from this wasted life? First, I don't know if I'd classify that as altruism. Second, it's been decades since I read the book so I'm happy to defer on this point, as I may be misremembering a number of things.
Magnus, you're preaching to the converted. However, I still think it's possible that saving a child from traffic and just standing by watching can both be examples of self-interest for two different people. Saving someone's life can provide a feeling of power, awe, responsibility and provide a dopamine high like few other things. For the other guy, not wanting to get smashed by a car is a more short term self-interest but in each case I don't necessarily see that as a refutation of psychological egoism. But on your larger point we firmly agree. Reducing all human activity to a primal self-interest doesn't seem to properly capture the depth of thought and reasoning in my own mind, and by reasonable extension, the minds of others.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Altruism, in contemporary Western philosophy, has moved beyond the realm of virtue, and may perhaps have little to do with morality.
It has been suggested that altruism is a survival mechanism for humans, making living in a law abiding community more manageable. Roughly speaking, the notion is that by behaving well, which is to say keeping your promises even when there is no immediate gain, being punctual for appointments, not making false insurance claims, and so on, has a cumulative effect, basically giving one a 'good reputation' with one's employers, peers and with businesses such as banks and insurance companies, upon which most of us rely. Conversely, those who are exploitative, your classic 'sponge', the guy who never buys a round, who cheats on his income tax and lingers over every payment in the hope that the creditor will give up, does not prosper for very long in any small community, and thrives by moving from group to group, as otherwise life starts to become somewhat difficult. I think we can all think of such examples. I know, I know, philosophers get paid for this? However, I'm just pointing out that there are different and quite specific definitions of altruism, not all of which see it as virtue for its own sake. Rather, a functioning human being will be naturally altruistic as a matter purely of self interest. It's a development of the idea of biological altruism. There's no gift like giving, right? Anyone who has travelled, worked or lived in Asia or the Far East will be familiar with the rituals of hospitality, and we have slightly less formalised versions ourselves which most adhere to more or less. The philosophy of altruism shines a light on that behaviour. I'm rather a fan of ritual altruism myself, but then I'm English. Now, who'd like a nice cup of tea? |
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arthur stead Inner circle When I played soccer, I hit 1773 Posts |
I think when you inject "ego" or "self" into any charitable or kind act, it is not altruism. It is only when you expect no reward for your actions (and don't "feel good" about yourself), but do it purely to help another being, that it can be defined as true altruism.
But that's a very high standard to aspire to. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7004 Posts |
I don't do good thongs for others because it makes me feel good. I do it because it helps them.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
That is certainly the original meaning of the word, Arthur, as coined by Comte. And it is what most philosophical discussion has focussed on, historically.
I'm not particularly arguing in favour of the above analysis of altruism, or enlightened self-interest, just thought it might be worth exploring. This reasoning asserts that people do genuinely believe that they are acting out of selflessness, and yet are in fact merely following a successful formula which sustains their own place within their community. Again, please understand that I am not asserting this as fact, but merely mentioning it for the sake of discussion. It is a disturbing notion for most of us, because it seems to call into question the integrity of our 'right actions', yet I do not necessarily think this need be the case. |
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arthur stead Inner circle When I played soccer, I hit 1773 Posts |
After some thought, I have to admit there are different degrees of altruism. For example, during my touring days I encountered many people who just loved to please. But their "altruism" overstepped any bounds of loyalty. Most of them were happy to please whomever they were with.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
The mind boggles! I think I know the kind of altruism you mean, Arthur.
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2015, magicfish wrote: I am pleased to hear it, magicfish, please keep your thongs to yourself. We don't need that kind of altruism around here. Unless it's leopard skin. That would be different. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2015, Steven Keyl wrote: He was also choosing to die in order that Charles Darnay, in whose place he is being executed, could live. He does this because of his love for Lucie, for whom he would "embrace any sacrifice for [her] and for those dear to [her]." That is the altruism I was referring to, not the symbolic rebirth of France or for any religious beliefs in an afterlife. He simply did it for love. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
I tend not to overanalyze my behaviour, but I know this; if I ever hit the jackpot, either through luck or by writing a best-seller, I will give most of it away. And it won't be to make me feel better, because I feel great as it is. And it won't be for religious reasons, because I have never had a religion or a religious thought. It is just that I think it is right that when I have enough I pass the rest on. And I think that it is right that if I see someone I can help, I should help them.
I have a brother who thinks the opposite. If someone was on fire he wouldn't **** on them. He seems to take pleasure in seeing other's misfortunes. I don't believe this is down to philosophy or anything. It is just the way some of us are made. Some of us feel empathy with others, some of us put ourselves first, and a few of us are a*sholes. Luckily they are in a minority. Lucky altruism, though not always sensible, is common enough. And I am not inclined to dig deeper.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Quote:
On May 12, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Could you expand on this idea of altruism? I love Dickens too, he is sentimental and grand and pompous and wonderful. He was a dramatist. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Sure- he sacrificed his own life because of his love for Lucie and his sympathy for Darnay.
While I'm not a proponent of Biblical literalism, and don't believe that religion is a necessary ingredient in altruism (or spirituality),I think that the idea is summed up pretty well in John 15:13- "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends." But this is the kind of topic that I really can only effectively expound upon during a long drinking session. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
Is that altruism, Bob, or something else? (Perhaps something better.)
Rereading this thread, I see that altruism has been characterised by the extreme image of a soldier dying so that his comrades might live. Many people, if not all, who have worn a uniform and risked their safety alongside others similarly attired, will have experienced the pre-emptive worry, 'Will I be up to the job? I desperately don't want to fail my friends and colleagues when the crisis happens!' I'm not suggesting this is a literal thought process, but I would be interested in anybody who does not understand the point and also has the relevant experience. It seems distasteful, I know, to pick that concern apart to its bare bones, and to ask the question, 'Why the concern?' However, it can and should be done. What if you run away and leave your comrades? What if you do not make the supreme sacrifice? What then? Well, history tells us that with such a seriously perceived moral failure comes harsh condemnation, sometimes resulting in mortal wounding. And then there is society's stigma as applied to the relatives and friends of the 'coward who ran away'. Is there a human need to be brave beyond the right action of being brave? I think perhaps there is. At least I think it's worth exploring, and I appreciate your reply. Believe it or not, I relate to it more than may at first appear. And the drinks are on me. |
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Vonschwager New user ben dover is my brother not a verb 19 Posts |
Getting help here is a form of altruism.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Tomski- I believe that you do. And I agree that the "soldier jumping on a hand grenade" may not be the best example because of the other factors you cited. I simply used it to dramatize the simple point I made earlier that altruism is something that distinguishes humankind from most lower species. (I say "most" because I have no doubt that there ARE other species that also can act with purely altruistic motives.)
It's probably one of the reasons I'm a deist rather than an atheist. I see altruism, as well as the inborn senses of right and wrong, fair and unfair, etc., as indicative of an inherent morality that goes beyond a simple survival instinct. {Both CS Lewis in his "Mere Christianity" and Francis Collins in "The Language of God" refer to this as an inborn moral law that goes beyond genetics or culture.) I realize that what I've written is incredibly simplified. And, as usual, I could be completely wrong. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
I don't think you're wrong at all, Bob. We are discussing the fabric of our own experience. We are peering into the holes in between, and it is vertiginous.
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Steven Keyl Inner circle Washington, D.C. 2630 Posts |
Quote:
On May 11, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Thanks for the clarification. I really need to reread it sometime.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!
B2B Magazine Test! Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever! "If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
It's a very fine novel.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Steven- For some reason, that book is one that I reread every couple of years. And as I get older, I get something different from it on each reading.
But you weren't wrong- The connotations of an afterlife and a rebirth of France are definitely there. Like all great literature, the book can be read and understood on many levels. |
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tomsk192 Inner circle 3894 Posts |
'Mere Christianity' should be required reading, not just for professed Christians, but for anyone who seeks to comment on Christianity when in the company of intellectually switched on Christians.
On another note, 'A Grief Observed' is also well worth reading, for anyone to who has faith and struggles with apparent cosmic injustice in experiencing bereavement. For others, it is also worthwhile as a beautifully eloquent record of bereavement, and does not shy away from asking the most difficult questions. One observes the thought processes of a hugely enlightened individual, with a great gift for words, caught up in a maelstrom of human torment. |
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