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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Difference between $100 and $1,000 magician. (17 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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10,000 full evening shows? How long were they?

That is a fascinating number
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Sam Sandler
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Hi Danny

i never said 10,000 full evening shows. I said I had performed close to 10,000 shows. at this point I believe the number is over 10,000 shows that I have performed.
my full evening show is 90 minutes long and my other shows all run 55-60 minutes long.

just last year during my 45 state national tour I performed 400 shows alone. 95% of the shows ran 50 minutes the rest ran closer to 60 minutes.
not every year is that many but there have been many years of 400+ shows. from full evening illusion shows with my assistant to private events, to walk around events to every kind of event you can think of.



its been a great 2 decades of magic and looking forward to my next national tour.
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
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Dannydoyle
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So 400 multiplied by 20 years is only 8,000.

I guess math confuses me because that is not anywhere close to 10,000 shows a few years ago.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
AttnPls
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$900.
BrianMillerMagic
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Quote:
On May 22, 2015, AttnPls wrote:
$900.


I laughed out loud, quite hard. Thanks for that!
Sam Sandler
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Danny I'll try to be more clear.

Some years have done 400 some closer to 500 some only 250.
Plus the past 2 decades is just the time that I have been a full time professional. I have been performing for close to 30 years.

The 10,000 shows is lifetime. Sorry I was not clear. And if you read what I wrote I said I believe it is over 10,000. But it could be 9,500. Or somewhere a bit more or a bit less. I have not gone back and counted every single show I have ever done. But the number is up there.

But you know what. I don't appreciate what seems to be your condinsending attitude twords me. And insinuating that I'm not telling the truth here.
That's just impolite my friend.

I have performed, lectured and taught magic for over 2 decades. I have paid my dues.
If in the future you have a problem with my "math" or anything else please contact me directly.

Meanwhile I was merely trying to offer some advice and my thoughts and experience with others that were seeking it.
Why you needed to belittle some one is beyond me.

Sam
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
http://www.samsandler.com
http://www.deafinitelymagic.com
Dannydoyle
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Wow defensive much?

You put out a number and I asked for clarification. Now I am being rude?

I accused you of nothing. It is just that the number you threw out there is extraordinarily high. I was curious as to how one accumulated such a number. It can be done and I know those who have.

Not many people hit that number. People throw around numbers all the time and often do not quite understand exactly what they mean.

Sorry you feel condescend to. That is not my intent. I was curious about the number and apapparently you do not quite hit it.

I was curious what a show consisted of to be counted. Lots of my friends do amusement park shows at 7-12 a day! Adds up quick.

Try being less offended and just talking and maybe you won't get upset.

Not many guys out there doing that many shows. If talking about actual numbers makes you feel bad sorry. Not quite sure why that is such an issue.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RookieMage
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Because I am a Rookie Mage (I'm not much, But I Am All I Think About :o)
, I think I will toss in a point that I discovered a few years ago. And as a fair disclaimer, I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro magician. But I'm still gonna toss in my dos centavos...

Limits to income are largely in the mind. Yes, skill, experience, etc... have an effect on income, there is just no way around those truths. Still, many times our incomes are limited by what we Imagine we can and cannot make. My income started to jump upwards drastically after I had an epiphany while negotiating a salary. I was offered a salary to go with a job offer, and I added $10,000 to the salary amount and the employer immediately said, "Ok." I was God smacked. The idea that other folks would value me at that much higher dollar figure Was A Surprise To Me Big Time! Prior to Asking For More Money (without hardly thinking about it), I had no idea it could work. When it did, everything changed. My income has only risen since then.

I suppose you could say that I am merely hyping the positive mental attitude gurus like Tony Robbins or Dr. Wayne Dyer, but there is a lot to be said about "acting as if you are already successful" and good old fashioned Believing That Something You Have Never Done Before Is Possible. My increase in income did not occur until After I imagined it was possible.

Lastly, a $100 mage might simply lack the business/negotiation skills of the $1,000 mage. If you are a great magician who has little business skill, you will always make less than the mage with more business skill (IMO). I do business negotiations around money all the time and I truly benefited from formal negotiation training, in a classroom, from veteran negotiators. Body language, closing, selling, incremental negotiation, there are a lot of skills that a pro magician could learn to increase their income beyond the pure magic skill level.

Oh well, I stuck my neck out, just remember; "don't hate the player, hate the game"... Smile
eatonmagic
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Quote:
On May 19, 2015, sjbrundage wrote:
While talking to my girlfriend she was saying "that is too much" No one is going to pay that much for a magician. "Boy she was wrong"


One reason why she probably said this is because of the same reason ALL people say it. Because they think with THEIR wallet, not the client's.

Of course SHE could never imagine nor justify spending such an amount on a magician because she is not your idea client. This happens in byline of work doing design and marketing. Most small business owners think of the cost and not the investment or the return related with the investment.

Remember that people buy with emotion and justify with logic. If the need is great enough, people WILL pay.

Good for you to raise your rates and weed out the ones that aren't serious buyers. Perfect example of working smatter, not harder Smile
Mindpro
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Since many are thinking it and no one is saying it, I'll take it....What's the difference between $100 and $1,000 magicians? $1,000 magicians (and even $100 magicians) don't use the term "mage"!
Sam Sandler
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Danny I then apologize. You know things can be lost in translation on threads like this with out hearing the tone or fully knowhi g how some one says something n
I'm sorry I got defensive. I have had some run ins with other magicians that have spread some nasty lies and falsehoods about me and I guess I just hit you with a knee jerk reaction. Sorry bud.

I perform a lot of school shows they add up fast as well as for 3 years I was the wal mart magician in my area I was performing at 6 wal marts a week 5 nights a week. Plus my regular shows. It was an insane 3 years but loved it.

I'm currently in talks and working on setting up another national tour that might run for 3 years. Working hard all the time.

Again I'm so sorry I miss read your intentions with your comments. But the one did seem a bit out there making the comment about math and stating it was not even close. I think you could have been a bit easier going and simply asked questions instead of leading others to think your questioning my words

But let's move past this and get back to magicians helping magicians.

Sam
sam sandler- America's only full-time DEAF Illusionist
http://www.samsandler.com
http://www.deafinitelymagic.com
RookieMage
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Hey Mindpro, thanks for helping out a Rookie Mage with your advice about not using the word Mage; I suppose it was one too many times playing D&D as a kid that left me using the term and at age 51, I am a tad stuck in my old lingo. As a confessed Rookie here, I can use all the help anyone can provide, thanks for sharing.
Mindpro
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No problem, just having a bit of fun. Welcome! A point to consider, while many here are magicians, there are many here who are not and are other types of performers such as mentalists, hypnotists, jugglers, clowns, speakers, educators, novelty performers, specialty performers, agents, producers, promoters, balloon artists, non-magic kids party entertainers, DJs, comedians, party hosts, writers, creators, etc.

While magic is always part of things, many come here for a variety of other reasons usually pertaining to their business, marketing, specific performance markets, press and media, management and operations and making the transitions from hobbyist, to part-timer, or to full-time. Some amateur, others semi-professional and professional.

I think one of the nicest things here about this section is it is not about the magic or tricks or props and accessories (although now that I've said this someone will attempt to post just such a question) which I know to many is refreshing.
saysold1
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Ya Mindpro reeled me into this section some months ago and now I'm hooked...
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Thehedge
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Rookie age, thanks for your input. As you may not have performing exerience, your exerience can be helpful to us "young bucks." Thanks for your two cents.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Thehedge
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RookieMage sorry, darn auto correct.
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
Thorn (UK)
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In my personal experience I've found that (working through agents) once you've set a price with an agent they're reluctant to view you as worth much more as time passes. Agents I've started working through quite recently are prepared to pay me a far higher fee than agents I've been active with for years. I think people tend to get a very fixed idea of you and it's hard to make them see how you've grown.
Or maybe I just haven't been very good at keeping my older agents informed about the higher calibre gigs I'm getting these days!
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jul 1, 2015, Thorn (UK) wrote:
In my personal experience I've found that (working through agents) once you've set a price with an agent they're reluctant to view you as worth much more as time passes. Agents I've started working through quite recently are prepared to pay me a far higher fee than agents I've been active with for years. I think people tend to get a very fixed idea of you and it's hard to make them see how you've grown.
Or maybe I just haven't been very good at keeping my older agents informed about the higher calibre gigs I'm getting these days!



Yes, this is the way it is and really should be. You seem to only be looking at this from only one perspective.

You, as an entertainer are the product being sold, just like any other product that is taken to market. You've provided your wholesale price to the agency for them to retail to their customers. As with any other product, once a price is established the machine starts to work. Once a shirt is offered at one price wholesale, it is then sold to the source for resale at the retail price. That is exactly what the agency(s) are doing with you likely BASED ON THE PRICE YOU'VE GIVEN THEM AND AGREED TO. Once this is in place the agency/retailer then starts their machine to take it to their market based on the price you've provided. They offer it to their customers. Most if interested at all will not likely purchase until the need arises for them personally. This could take months or perhaps a year or two if at all.

Just like the shirt, it would be wrong and inappropriate after once it has hit the market to all of a sudden change your price (wholesale) as it would cause a chain effect all done the line. Now prospects that have been told one price and are proceeding with this figure in mind all of a sudden are expected to pay a new increased price? This is wrong on many levels.

And Yes, if your prices have changed it is YOUR JOB to inform any agencies you are listed with, and Yes, you stand a great chance of being dropped or dropped lower in their booking priority because you have now changed the formula - their price, their margins, perhaps the price point position they were interested in you at and many other elements that you seem to be completely overlooking.

There are three sides to this formula - your price, the agency's price and the price to the purchaser. You seem not to be thinking of or considering the last two perspectives.

This is exactly why most performers do not know and understand how to work with agents or agencies. Most entertainers have a completely wrong perception and understanding of agents, agencies and how they operate.

If you have newer agencies conducting business at a higher rate it's because you established this formula with them at a newer price. This all lies on your shoulders and responsibilities not the agencies.

Truth be told, most agencies accept to represent an artist or act for a specific reason, price point or purpose on their roster. When you change those elements and dynamics, it's wrong for you to have the same expectations.

Also just because one agency may be interested in you for a specific spot on their roster at a specific price point, in no way makes or assures the same situation position and price point to another or other agencies.
TonyB2009
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Last summer I had a residency at a resort every week, at a price that I thought was okay (but not great). It was on a quiet evening that I would not normally have been working, and close by, so I took the money the agency offered and did the season.

One night I was cancelled because the resort had a big music act in and felt that they needed a prestigious magic act to go with it. I told the agency I was as good as any they would book, but they went outside the agency and hired the magician direct. He asked for eight times my fee, and finally settled for five times my fee for one evening.

The following week I asked the resort entertainment manager how I compared to the expensive magician. He said that I worked the crowd better, but the other guy had a nicer suit.

"Next time we have a situation like that, we will give you an extra hundred and you can hire a suit," he joked.

So there's your answer; it is the suit.

On a serious note, it is a pile of things that have nothing much to do with the magic. How you look, how you speak, the style of your website, the quality of your promotional materials, the confidence in your voice when you answer the phone. This year, fed up with the recession, I have begun presenting myself properly and asking for bigger fees with complete confidence. And funnily enough I am getting the gigs. Still a long way off a thousand a gig, but the day will come.
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