That said, there's nothing wrong with sticking to one school or the other. I just think it's not good to tell others not to branch out or try combining different fields.

I think any mentalist will use any technology. Magic or not. If only there was a good result.

To the point above re: mixing in an egg bag is a straw dog IMHOtep - but what if you did do a transformation? Your scope and internal working is more about manipulating and transmuting matter.... a "magic" trick of changing the steel spoon into an aluminum one - giving a (false) explanation you bend things by making the metal softer via molecular whatever.... in fact - you can make water bowl or freeze with your mind etc. Its how you frame it so it makes sense to allow the suspension of disbelief. Molecular manipulation via psychic powers would be cool. Again, Uri's backstory of alien beams or whatever allows to have some mind reading and such too....

But I believe the above eggbag/mentalism example is NOT what we are talking about in combining things.... IMHOtep

...i have always thought that black water/clear water effect would work well with some forms of mentalism...

and I agree - though I have heard of some very odd mixtures a little like the egg bag in with mentalism thing, I think overall, people are wanting to be more subtle than that...

however, as I said before - if you wanna be a mentalist, just keep it simple and just perform mentalism...it makes your life easier... you can pick any five classics from the mentalism literature out there, find your story arc, your framework and go out and have at it...it'll eventually become something that is more and more "you"...

the joy for me, has always been in the transforming - of one thing to another...IMHOtep!

How is the egg bag example a straw man? Dunninger frequently opened with an egg bag production, so the comparison goes directly to the heart of the matter, and also goes back to my explanation of why some mentalists can get away with just that, even though most can't and shouldn't even try. But you didn't answer my question, so I'll rephrase it- If Uri Geller did a coin matrix effect in between his other demonstrations, and presented it as an example of teleportation, would that add to, or detract from, his believability?

As I've written many times, the more powers a mentalist implicitly or explicitly claims, the less believable he will be. Internal consistency and consistency between character and premise are two of the most important factors in presenting plausible mentalism that doesn't look like a magic act.

In the end, though, while individual answers to these questions will vary, the problem has always been that most new mentalists never even stop to think about them.

Dunninger opened with it - your example put the egg bag in the middle of a set. the order of things says a great deal. Also, dunninger wasn't worried about being a mentalist - he was being DUNNINGER IMHOtep

You also said he was an exception.

So if an egg bag can fit with internal logic of a frame presented cool.... I can think of many ways it can as a way to move from "magic we know is theatrical" to "mysteries we no longer know for sure is theatrical or not" kind of thing.... an egg bag as a metaphor.

Indeed - the more I get involved in these discussions the more I would say - time for a limited edition copy, book of the decade, with no resale rights, no performing rights entitled "THE EGG-HEAD BAG: 202 Mentalism Routines with the Egg-Bag" by Alan Smithee IV

If Dunninger wasn't concerned about being a mentalist, why was he billed, on stage, radio, and television, as "The Master Mentalist?"

And reread my last paragraph. We don't disagree as much as you seem to think:



My bottom line is that the indiscriminate mixing of magic and mental effects has contributed to the continuing trivialization of mentalism.

(But you still haven't answered my question...)

I think we do agree in spirit! But that is because of the mediumistic effects.

He was the Master Mentalist - but I'd still say he was Dunninger even more! He was more than an MM... that is what made him really great! He could have been Master Mind Reader! etc. But his name itself was more powerful than his descriptor IMHOtep.

Anyway - the question being the coin matrix? Of course it would suck because it doesn't fit - we both agree to that there needs to be a frame and a backstory that holds things together.... a coin matrix is more (to me!) a presentation and again demo'ing magic..... if Uri opened with it.... as showing "magic" but then moved into actual dematerialization demo's of objects, bilocation, clairvoyance etc... maybe. But I'd skip a coin matrix - but lets break the coin matrix down... to me its about skills of conjuring (to me and perhaps the public) that unless it is used to say "this is theatre'''' but this is.... something else...." and use the same methods of hand techniques etc. to create a different presentation - viola! It would still be appear/disappear with the same methods etc. but the effect/presentation is now different.

I have an effect one could call a "prediction" confab routine but I redid it into a type of personality profile i.e. a person's choices etc. turn out to be classic responses from a textbook showing they may be X, Y or Z.... so, now the effect and presentation are different but the same methods and techniques are identical to doing a confab etc.

If that makes sense.

So, will you invest in the THE EGG-HEAD BAG: 202 Mentalism Routines with the Egg-Bag" by Alan Smithee IV... I think Alan with start a Kickstarter soon!

I recall reading about Uri doing "apports" from time to time. Objects falling "out of nowhere" when walking with people, etc. He may have been crediting the aliens during this phase.

It does make sense, Dr. Spektor. But I always ask myself what an act would look like if I was watching it on TV with no sound.

I think most mentalists would be seen as motivational speakers, pitchmen or game show hosts. And someone doing something that even remotely looked like a magic trick would be seen as a magician.

That's actually a fun exercise and also a good way to review your own act. Watch it on video with the sound off.

Then, turn the picture off and just listen to the audio. Can you still tell what's going on?

Yes, but that kind of works. Apports never have been associated with magic but rather with physical mediums. They still do them at some of the spiritualist camps. I never realized that the spirits had access to so much fake jewelry. You'd think at least one of them would apport a few real diamonds rather than Mardi Gras beads.

Best apports are sea shells.... little ones.... they go over the best so the spirits say!

I'll admit this too - although I still use playing cards - I do not use them nearly as often as I used to - because they are associated often with POOR MAGICIAN performances.... i.e. the card effects need to be so powerful they do not look like a magic trick.... y'see I think magic and mentalism both suffer from people doing any effect in a cheesy way / poor psychological frames etc.... like just someone puking up random chaotic routines - people want to "get into" the narrative of a story / narrative....

For example, back to a coin matrix - the question is why do it? what is the goal? People often go for the what versus the why.... and sometimes they go for the how and what... but you need a why/how/what often enough....

EGGBAG -> may come in as lets say I want to do a seance or psychometric experiment ala the Stone Tapes etc. and have collected some ancient artifacts.... why: demo psycpmetry simulation how: Multiple O*** and Equ**** using basic verbal manip and objects that can allow ind*** multiple outcomes... -> Dark Memory Effects / Vibrations from Violent Deaths etc.

so, if I were to get an egg bag - then Spookify it into an ancient Church Collection bag.... it gets forced etc. - then can go into another phase - have someone through in a coin and call upon some psychic mediumistic powers to give a sign... the person fishes out the coin to see a message carved / melted on it..... or other things.

Coin Matrix....hmmm.... now, I think I'd have to build up some other effects/routines to get into this premise - but maybe (just speculation) it can be put into a "hallucination" mental projection presentation.... "You will see what I want you to see - as I am mentally connected to your perceptions...." but I would tie it into other things more scientific style mentalism like rapid math calculations, magic squares, etc. and mnemonics...mastery of the mind - and through (fake) mental influence, you can effect other's cognitive and executive functions as well as their perceptions....

Hmmm.

At the height of his fame, I wonder if Geller COULD have done a version of Matrix (the one without the cards, just under the hands - blanking on the name) and had it accepted as real. I guess it would have caused the magicians to waggle their fingers but the laymen might have bought into it given the Geller charm and intensity.

Actually, Bill, I have a very strong coin bending routine that is based on a variant of a bare-hand matrix move.

Another great example is (do not attack) is on a Boris Pocus DVD (which I think is actually one of Sankey's greatest DVDs) using a great coin sleight that allows you to have a participant ALWAYS guess which hand a coin is in or ALWAYS MISS. Its really fun and fits in great with other mentalism coin / which hand routines.

Theres some great stuff on the Boris dvd..