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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Do you think the Cross cut force fool someone? experiances? (21 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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RiderBacks
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Keep talkin Rider, we're getting closer... Do you wear glasses?


Does a monocle count? I aim to give the appearance of an 18th century dandy. I feel it really helps my act.
magicfish
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Ok. I tracked down your card work, Rider. You took that directly from Faucett Ross. You almost had me stumped.
Faucett Ross got the idea from Vernon but Ross perfected the idea. He showed it to Francis Carlyle who was initially unimpressed. It wasnt until Faucett showed it to a young John Carney that its full potential was realized.
It caught on in the west coast underground and has remained there all these years- until now.
Rider, your work is awe inspiring both in its elegance and in its lineage.
Bravo sir.
RiderBacks
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Ok. I tracked down your card work, Rider. You took that directly from Faucett Ross. You almost had me stumped. Faucett Ross got the idea from Vernon but Ross perfected the idea. He showed it to Francis Carlyle who was initially unimpressed. It wasnt until Faucett showed it to a young John Carney that its full potential was realized. It caught on in the west coast underground and has remained there all these years- until now. Rider, your work is awe inspiring both in its elegance and in its lineage. Bravo sir.


Perhaps Faucett Ross did get the idea from Vernon. I wouldn't be remotely surprised. Where did Vernon get the idea? You still haven't found the source. And now I'm just giving you too many hints.
magicfish
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That's where I'm stuck rider, Vernon got stuff from a couple places other than his own mind. Youre videos got me thinking it's pre $20 Dollar Manuscript. So pre New York. Im thinkin this is from his Ottawa days?
RiderBacks
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: That's where I'm stuck rider, Vernon got stuff from a couple places other than his own mind. Youre videos got me thinking it's pre $20 Dollar Manuscript. So pre New York. Im thinkin this is from his Ottawa days?


Warmer! No, let's call it hot... You're hot on the trail now. At this point, I'm sure not just a few people are chuckling... But you'll get there.
magicfish
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Ok, I got it. It was the very first trick Vernon ever saw . His dad performed it for him at age 7.
The rest is history, no wonder it's not in my tiny little library.
RiderBacks
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Ok, I got it. It was the very first trick Vernon ever saw . His dad performed it for him at age 7. The rest is history, no wonder it's not in my tiny little library.


I'm not yanking your chain. I hope you're not yanking mine. It sounds like you've read a little bit. (By the way, I read a fair bit. Maybe more than you, though I read smartly and selectively. And yes, I have read Close. No, I have not read every word of Workers, just as I have not read every word of Close Up Card Magic. Why would anyone do that? I also have a love-hate relationship with Close's writing style.) But whatever, if you're well-read and have a reasonable library, I'm sure the source is in it. And perhaps you should consider consulting that source more... The Professor would have slapped you at this point. And yes, the source is pre-1920's. You might go back to that YouTube video I linked and check its references for further help on identifying the source of the cut I linked. Once again, you'll get there. If I wasn't in a foul mood I'd just give it to you. But right now, I'm in a foul mood.
magicfish
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Come on Rider, don't be foul, tell us the source of this gem.
RiderBacks
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Come on Rider, don't be foul, tell us the source of this gem.


I am disappointed in you. Who published a book (from which Vernon learned in his early days) for the alleged reason that he needed the money? That's your source.
ianchandler
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This is a hilarious thread.
magicfish
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On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Come on Rider, don't be foul, tell us the source of this gem.


I am disappointed in you. Who published a book (from which Vernon learned in his early days) for the alleged reason that he needed the money? That's your source.

I am disappointed in myself, Rider. All these years of study and I had no idea that the source of Extreme Card Magic, Sybil Cuts, One handed quadruple cuts etc, was Erdnase all along.
The Expert at the Card table for me, and according to Vernon, was always about economy of motion and naturalness at the card table. About not arousing suspicion of sleight of hand.
But I guess I need to read it again. I was totally unaware of the XCM contained within.
Thanks for the lesson, Rider. It just goes to show you, you can never know it all.
Sh9bum9
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Check out Michael Close's "The Ooh-Ah Bird" for an excellent lesson on the Cross cut force. It works for many, so if it doesn't for you, don't use it.
Decisions determine destiny. Thomas S. Monson
Russ Martin
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On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:

. . . You do not make magic by adding "time delay." You increase confusion. What kind of hubris must you have to believe that your (polite) spectator is fooled by this nonsense? . . .


And yet Hartman (1991) writes:

"The A-D Revolving Force, the Criss Cross Force, and other related sleights have an element of optical confusion or at least time delay to provide cover or misdirection.'

I fail to see why cover and/or misdirection are not integral parts of "magic".
I feel more like I do now than I did before.
magicfish
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Of course you are right, Russ, as is Mr. Hartman and countless other experts. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but it was derailed by a troll pulling a prank.
lurker
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There is nothing whatsoever wrong with the cross cut force. I have been using it for years. You have to know how, when and which tricks you can use it for though. It always deceives but you must use time misdirection in order to get the best result.
RiderBacks
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On Jan 8, 2016, David Fillary wrote: Anyway, back to that first question. The CC force obviously has some flaws, so if you can share a sure-fire way to force a card where you don't touch the deck, I would happily change to it.


Mathematical forces should fill the bill provided you can set the forced card at a location.
RiderBacks
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On Jan 8, 2016, Lance Pierce wrote: Sorry...I should be clearer.

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I put the best possible delivery of the cross-cut force roughly on par with the best possible delivery/framing of the force I described.


My point was that if this is the best a magician can do with these kinds of forces, then the technique can be expected to fail -- and rightfully so. However, the scenario you described is far from the best way to frame these kinds of techniques.

I think part of the problem with this sort of discussion is the idea of "time misdirection" itself, because rarely does anyone stop to think what it really means; people just fire off arguments about whether it works or not. You're probably right in that most of the time, the simple passage of moments isn't enough to ensure that a cross-cut force will be deceptive. What has to happen is that in those moments, the audience must be given something more important or interesting to think about. They must be carried along by a greater theme or priority than simply which packet is where. It's this, combined with the passage of time, that causes people to forget comparatively less significant details, like which packet was on top or whether the bottom card of a packet was originally the top card of the deck.

The same holds true for Poker Player's Picnic, of course. I hope someday you can see Florida magician Ed Oschmann perform his version, which is a great party trick, because he saw a way to reframe the deals.

All this is why someone like Michael Skinner, in all his years of experience and performing, considered a handling of the Cross-Cut Force as one of his prized gems and hailed it as one of the strongest tricks he ever did, sharing it with only a very select few for many, many years.


Unfortunately, the scenario I described was a perfect description of what I actually witnessed a magician perform (minus the time misdirection). :-/

I'm with you on the point that there are ways to obfuscate here. There are no doubt more and less convincing routines which incorporate the cross-cut. You can pull it off poorly or with great expertise.There is no doubt that with proper routining, you can pull off one of the most stellar cross-cut forces ever. Still, I continue to maintain that the most stellar cross-cut force is lackluster when performed for intelligent people who rightly don't believe in the existence of anything remotely akin to "real magic". (Such individuals will immediately notice that, because of your amazing performance, they have *forgotten* which pack was the top or bottom. And then the trick is over. The explanation is obvious (it's that they lost track of the cards), and they will blame themselves for not paying more attention despite your disarming patter and routining.

Ok, suppose that most of that's wrong. Are you going to work really hard to perfect routining and patter for every trick you perform with the cross-cut such that you can get away with the cross-cut as your main force? No. Nobody is that good. Investing massive quantities of time into trying to develop a stellar cross-cut (which is, I maintain, still lackluster) for each and every trick you perform which requires a force? No way. And even if you could pull that miracle off, why not opt for spending the time you spend routining on working on a better force instead? That makes more sense. Nor is the fact that the cross-cut can be used as a hands off force particular interesting, IMO. (And here I respond to someone else.) It's absurd to think that spectators find a Classic Force unfair because the "magician's hands touched the cards." But if you want a purely in the hands of the spectator force, it's not that hard to find better ways (especially if you can set the card you want forced at a location).

I appreciate you taking the time to provide your thoughts. I have great respect for your work, and even if we wind up disagreeing, which we may or may not, I wish that I was half as competent as you are and will always pay attention to what you have to say.
Lance Pierce
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...and even if we wind up disagreeing, which we may or may not...


It's all good! We're not arguing...just two folks discussing something we love.

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I'm with you on the point that there are ways to obfuscate here...


I see this as an issue. To obfuscate means to make something obscure or unclear. Only in the least of senses can it be said that's what's happening in a well-managed Cross Cut force. Instead, what we want to do is present a very clear narrative...just not one that includes the relative positions of the packets as meaningful in any way.

I do see what you're saying, though. It's quite reasonable to say that in no way should a Cross Cut Force (which is actually much less a force and much more a bluff) be a person's "go to" technique to force a card. For that, there are far better ways. I simply don't think a blanket statement that it's completely worthless and never fooling is supportable.

Thanks...
RiderBacks
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On Jan 11, 2016, Lance Pierce wrote: It's all good! We're not arguing...just two folks discussing something we love.


I like your style! =)
Charles Gaff
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I learned this cut with the x!!!!!d deck. The introduction of the folded paper and patter is the time misdirection that I've used many times to distract/misdirect/fool/direct the spectators focus. I think this is a great force, I've never had a bad reaction to it.
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