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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Do you think the Cross cut force fool someone? experiances? (21 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ThomasJ
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On Nov 29, 2015, lcwright1964 wrote:
In his newest book, Simon Aronson describes a combo of a milk shuffle with a crosscut positioning that confuses which packet is which and I think is really deceptive and worth getting to know.


This is the context in which I was referring to using the principle within an effect. In the same vein is Tenkai's Optical Revolve commonly used in Triumph routines. The disorientation is used as a means to an end, not as an end which it is when forcing a card.
RiderBacks
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On Nov 29, 2015, lcwright1964 wrote: I also want to put in a plug of Roberto Giobbi's latest video download, Simply Amazing, available at the site named for a certain flightless bird. The six effects therein are hardly groundbreakers. However, Giobbi brings sophistication and style to the presentation, and there are lots of learning points and subtleties that help make the crosscut, Balducci, and 10-20 forces seem natural and convincing with a lay audience.


Giobbi always brings sophistication and style. The man has presentation down.
Lance Pierce
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Toward this lowly move, I can only offer that one of Michael Skinner's pet effects, that he shared with a very, very few, was simply a use of the cross-cut force. There was no other move or action in the entire piece. He said it was one of the strongest tricks he'd ever done and one that he used when he knew he needed to make a strong impression on his audience.
magicfish
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On Nov 24, 2015, ThomasJ wrote:
The problem with this force, aside from being in every beginner book on magic, is this - if you use the needed time delay / misdirection, your audience rarely recalls which half was the top. They will naturally question (be it internal or outright) if that was the card they cut to. Sure they'll play along and (pretend to) take your word for it, but the force is not convincing at all. Cross Cut might be a decent principle to use for other purposes within the context of an effect, but as a force? No way. Vernon always said, "Confusion is not magic," and this force is borderline confusion.

TJ

This is totally incorrect.
magicfish
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Anyone who thinks a PROPERLY executed cross cut isn't effective is disagreeing with Ackerman, Skinner, Fechter, Lorayne, Aronson, Bannon, Cervon, Nelson, Jennings, Carney, Ortiz, Dingle, etc.
Read and study the effects published by these greats and see how they use simple techniques for maximum impact.
ThomasJ
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I've read them, and I've used the force myself plenty of times in the past. However, there are more convincing forces out there that will convince 100% of the people 100% of the time that they had free will. Even if the cross-cut is executed properly, there's still the chance that one person is aware of the exact method. That's one too many.
RiderBacks
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On Dec 2, 2015, ThomasJ wrote: I've read them, and I've used the force myself plenty of times in the past. However, there are more convincing forces out there that will convince 100% of the people 100% of the time that they had free will. Even if the cross-cut is executed properly, there's still the chance that one person is aware of the exact method. That's one too many.


Pretty much this. The fact is that most thinking people (who quite properly don't believe in voodoo or special, non-existent Satanic powers) will be left underwhelmed even if you initially sneak this lame force by them. While you might initially sneak it by them, their reconstruction will quickly reveal to them the moment at which you, in their mind, probably pulled off some ********. With so many better forces available, I really pity the person who uses this one. Up your game, FFS and for the sake of magic. Stop being so gimpy. Banish this garbage from your arsenal. I *could* use this force on some people I know. One woman I work with believes that Magic The Gathering is some kind of Satanic devil-worship. I'm sure it'd fly by her. But since I can force better, why should I rely on this lowly move? This woman isn't stupid, despite her fracking odd beliefs. Why give her the chance to reconstruct the method when one can use forces that provide much less of such a reconstruction being arrived upon? With her, I can probably easily land a Classic Force. So why not go for it?

I'm not usually concerned about someone having advance awareness of the method. Most of the brilliant people I hang around probably don't know the Cross-Cut force. But they will, post-effect, be able to figure out that you cheated them with the "force", or, at the very least, suspect that you cheated them at that point. Since better forces are available,, why give them this opportunity? Eliminate the opportunity to question as best you can. Using this "lowly move" doesn't satisfy that desideratum.
Uli Weigel
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RiderBacks, would you say, that the Jay Ose False Cut also fools nobody?
Claudio
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Darwin Ortiz's effect One Shot, One Kill from his book Lessons in Card Mastery uses a cross-cut force, because it's the best force (for laypeople) at that stage of the effect.

It's possible to embellish the cross-cut so that it's genuinely deceiving, though it does not look much like the CC force anymore, and it's maybe a good thing.

PM me for a description if you're interested.
Lance Pierce
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On Oct 15, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
I hate this force. I hate it with a passion so strong you can't even begin to imagine my hate. That said, I'm sure the vast majority of people are stupid enough to fall for this nonsense. After all, half of them are of below average intelligence. However, I would rather kill myself than rely on this force. If you can't force better, you'll still probably fool a fair number with it. If you know your audience will fall for it, go for it. But dear god, please work on forcing better! This is a force that fools a significant percentage of the population, but it's very sad that fools so many. If you're just starting out? OK. I can see that. But please, please, work on learning better forces.


I'll suggest that perhaps part of the problem is that everyone thinks of it as a force. It's not. It's a bluff. That's a meaningful -- and critical -- distinction.
magicfish
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The cross cut force is an extremely powerful tool. If as a performer you are unable to exploit its power then please don't use it and choose something else.
RiderBacks
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On Dec 3, 2015, Uli Weigel wrote: RiderBacks, would you say, that the Jay Ose False Cut also fools nobody?


That's a good question, and I have my own anwer. I avoid these kinds of cuts (and especially avoid the flourishy in-the-hands versions). This for two reasons. First, I try (within some limits) not to be too flashy with cards. Second, I think these moves create confusion, not magic. I believe that the appropriate spectator response to cuts in this style is, "I don't know what you just did. Maybe you cut the deck. Maybe you didn't." (That's what the *intelligent* spectator's response would be, at least.) For a tabled false cut, I would prefer to substitute an up-the-ladder sequence.
magicfish
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An up the ladder sequence is much flashier than an Ose False Cut.
Ose's is extremely deceptive.
Up The Ladder is wonderful but conveys an air of great skill and manipulation by the performer.
Both are excellent but are in no way interchangeable. You wouldnt catch Ted Lesley or Barrie Richardson doing an up the ladder but they have devastated intelligent, high paying, sophisticated audiences for decades with subtle procedures like the cross cut and the Ose.
Count Lustig
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On Dec 3, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, Uli Weigel wrote: RiderBacks, would you say, that the Jay Ose False Cut also fools nobody?


That's a good question, and I have my own anwer. I avoid these kinds of cuts (and especially avoid the flourishy in-the-hands versions). This for two reasons. First, I try (within some limits) not to be too flashy with cards. Second, I think these moves create confusion, not magic. I believe that the appropriate spectator response to cuts in this style is, "I don't know what you just did. Maybe you cut the deck. Maybe you didn't." (That's what the *intelligent* spectator's response would be, at least.) For a tabled false cut, I would prefer to substitute an up-the-ladder sequence.

Your linking the Ose Cut with "being too flashy with cards" makes me wonder whether you even know what the Ose Cut is. There are few false cuts less flashy than Jay Ose's. (If you do know the move, it makes your comments even more ridiculous.)

"Second, I think these moves create confusion, not magic."

All false cuts rely on confusing the audience as to which packet is which. The trick is to keep them from realizing it--indeed, to leave them convinced that they followed exactly what happened. And false cuts are not supposed to create magic. They're supposed to create the belief that the cards are in a different order than they were before. Few false cuts achieve those goals better than Jay Ose's.

Your constant evoking of a ghost chorus of "*intelligent* spectators," "highly intelligent individuals," "intelligent Ph.D.s," and "brilliant people I hang around" who all conveniently happen to see things your way, is a perfect example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy. If a spectator doesn't react the way you think he should, it just proves that he's not truly intelligent. (If you can't understand the link below, perhaps you can get one of those "brilliant people" you hang around to explain it to you.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

RiderBacks' motto: Always wrong; never in doubt.
RiderBacks
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On Dec 4, 2015, Count Lustig wrote: Your linking the Ose Cut with "being too flashy with cards" makes me wonder whether you even know what the Ose Cut is. There are few false cuts less flashy than Jay Ose's. (If you do know the move, it makes your comments even more ridiculous.)


Reading is hard for some people. Apparently reading is hard for you. I recommend that you reread my comments to which you replied and try to achieve some modicum of understanding. I did not say that Jay Ose's cut was flashy. You're showing you foolishness off. Stop pretending that confusion results in magic. If you are asked to cut the cards while playing a serious game of poker, and you execute some hard to follow ****, you might just get shot. Who cares about that, of course. Swindling others isn't my game. I'm interested in magic, not snookering gambers. So make it clean and fair. Oh ****. Making it clean and fair works for magic just as much as it does for cheats!
RiderBacks
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On Dec 4, 2015, Count Lustig wrote: All false cuts rely on confusing the audience as to which packet is which.


Meh. You can rely upon confusion if you have to. I recommend not relying upon confusion. Make your moves look clean and fair. Don't settle for relying upon confusion. To do so is to take the lazy way out.
magicfish
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I hear movement under the bridge...
Count Lustig
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On Dec 5, 2015, RiderBacks wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 4, 2015, Count Lustig wrote: All false cuts rely on confusing the audience as to which packet is which.


Meh. You can rely upon confusion if you have to. I recommend not relying upon confusion. Make your moves look clean and fair. Don't settle for relying upon confusion. To do so is to take the lazy way out.

"Clean and fair" is a pretty good description of the Jay Ose False Cut. (Look it up some time.)

You favor the up-the-ladder cut. Nothing wrong with that. But if you don't realize that the up-the-ladder cut works by confusing the audience as to which packet is which, you don't understand the move. (If the audience realized which packet is which, they would realize that the deck is in the same order.)

Both the Ose cut and the up-the-ladder cut are effective because the audience doesn't feel confused. They think they followed what happened. (Kind of like the way you think you know what you're talking about.)
Ben Blau
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The Jay Ose false cut even fools people who know it.
magicfish
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Jon Racherbaumer observed that the Ose Cut looks more real from the spectator's vantage point than a true triple cut to the table.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » All in the cards » » Do you think the Cross cut force fool someone? experiances? (21 Likes)
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