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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Keep talkin Rider, we're getting closer... Do you wear glasses? Does a monocle count? I aim to give the appearance of an 18th century dandy. I feel it really helps my act. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7002 Posts |
Ok. I tracked down your card work, Rider. You took that directly from Faucett Ross. You almost had me stumped.
Faucett Ross got the idea from Vernon but Ross perfected the idea. He showed it to Francis Carlyle who was initially unimpressed. It wasnt until Faucett showed it to a young John Carney that its full potential was realized. It caught on in the west coast underground and has remained there all these years- until now. Rider, your work is awe inspiring both in its elegance and in its lineage. Bravo sir. |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Ok. I tracked down your card work, Rider. You took that directly from Faucett Ross. You almost had me stumped. Faucett Ross got the idea from Vernon but Ross perfected the idea. He showed it to Francis Carlyle who was initially unimpressed. It wasnt until Faucett showed it to a young John Carney that its full potential was realized. It caught on in the west coast underground and has remained there all these years- until now. Rider, your work is awe inspiring both in its elegance and in its lineage. Bravo sir. Perhaps Faucett Ross did get the idea from Vernon. I wouldn't be remotely surprised. Where did Vernon get the idea? You still haven't found the source. And now I'm just giving you too many hints. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7002 Posts |
That's where I'm stuck rider, Vernon got stuff from a couple places other than his own mind. Youre videos got me thinking it's pre $20 Dollar Manuscript. So pre New York. Im thinkin this is from his Ottawa days?
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: That's where I'm stuck rider, Vernon got stuff from a couple places other than his own mind. Youre videos got me thinking it's pre $20 Dollar Manuscript. So pre New York. Im thinkin this is from his Ottawa days? Warmer! No, let's call it hot... You're hot on the trail now. At this point, I'm sure not just a few people are chuckling... But you'll get there. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7002 Posts |
Ok, I got it. It was the very first trick Vernon ever saw . His dad performed it for him at age 7.
The rest is history, no wonder it's not in my tiny little library. |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Ok, I got it. It was the very first trick Vernon ever saw . His dad performed it for him at age 7. The rest is history, no wonder it's not in my tiny little library. I'm not yanking your chain. I hope you're not yanking mine. It sounds like you've read a little bit. (By the way, I read a fair bit. Maybe more than you, though I read smartly and selectively. And yes, I have read Close. No, I have not read every word of Workers, just as I have not read every word of Close Up Card Magic. Why would anyone do that? I also have a love-hate relationship with Close's writing style.) But whatever, if you're well-read and have a reasonable library, I'm sure the source is in it. And perhaps you should consider consulting that source more... The Professor would have slapped you at this point. And yes, the source is pre-1920's. You might go back to that YouTube video I linked and check its references for further help on identifying the source of the cut I linked. Once again, you'll get there. If I wasn't in a foul mood I'd just give it to you. But right now, I'm in a foul mood. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7002 Posts |
Come on Rider, don't be foul, tell us the source of this gem.
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, magicfish wrote: Come on Rider, don't be foul, tell us the source of this gem. I am disappointed in you. Who published a book (from which Vernon learned in his early days) for the alleged reason that he needed the money? That's your source. |
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ianchandler Veteran user 312 Posts |
This is a hilarious thread.
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magicfish Inner circle 7002 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: I am disappointed in myself, Rider. All these years of study and I had no idea that the source of Extreme Card Magic, Sybil Cuts, One handed quadruple cuts etc, was Erdnase all along. The Expert at the Card table for me, and according to Vernon, was always about economy of motion and naturalness at the card table. About not arousing suspicion of sleight of hand. But I guess I need to read it again. I was totally unaware of the XCM contained within. Thanks for the lesson, Rider. It just goes to show you, you can never know it all. |
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Sh9bum9 Regular user 109 Posts |
Check out Michael Close's "The Ooh-Ah Bird" for an excellent lesson on the Cross cut force. It works for many, so if it doesn't for you, don't use it.
Decisions determine destiny. Thomas S. Monson
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Russ Martin New user Omaha, Nebraska 76 Posts |
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On Dec 6, 2015, RiderBacks wrote: And yet Hartman (1991) writes: "The A-D Revolving Force, the Criss Cross Force, and other related sleights have an element of optical confusion or at least time delay to provide cover or misdirection.' I fail to see why cover and/or misdirection are not integral parts of "magic".
I feel more like I do now than I did before.
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magicfish Inner circle 7002 Posts |
Of course you are right, Russ, as is Mr. Hartman and countless other experts. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but it was derailed by a troll pulling a prank.
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lurker New user 86 Posts |
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with the cross cut force. I have been using it for years. You have to know how, when and which tricks you can use it for though. It always deceives but you must use time misdirection in order to get the best result.
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Jan 8, 2016, David Fillary wrote: Anyway, back to that first question. The CC force obviously has some flaws, so if you can share a sure-fire way to force a card where you don't touch the deck, I would happily change to it. Mathematical forces should fill the bill provided you can set the forced card at a location. |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Jan 8, 2016, Lance Pierce wrote: Sorry...I should be clearer. Unfortunately, the scenario I described was a perfect description of what I actually witnessed a magician perform (minus the time misdirection). :-/ I'm with you on the point that there are ways to obfuscate here. There are no doubt more and less convincing routines which incorporate the cross-cut. You can pull it off poorly or with great expertise.There is no doubt that with proper routining, you can pull off one of the most stellar cross-cut forces ever. Still, I continue to maintain that the most stellar cross-cut force is lackluster when performed for intelligent people who rightly don't believe in the existence of anything remotely akin to "real magic". (Such individuals will immediately notice that, because of your amazing performance, they have *forgotten* which pack was the top or bottom. And then the trick is over. The explanation is obvious (it's that they lost track of the cards), and they will blame themselves for not paying more attention despite your disarming patter and routining. Ok, suppose that most of that's wrong. Are you going to work really hard to perfect routining and patter for every trick you perform with the cross-cut such that you can get away with the cross-cut as your main force? No. Nobody is that good. Investing massive quantities of time into trying to develop a stellar cross-cut (which is, I maintain, still lackluster) for each and every trick you perform which requires a force? No way. And even if you could pull that miracle off, why not opt for spending the time you spend routining on working on a better force instead? That makes more sense. Nor is the fact that the cross-cut can be used as a hands off force particular interesting, IMO. (And here I respond to someone else.) It's absurd to think that spectators find a Classic Force unfair because the "magician's hands touched the cards." But if you want a purely in the hands of the spectator force, it's not that hard to find better ways (especially if you can set the card you want forced at a location). I appreciate you taking the time to provide your thoughts. I have great respect for your work, and even if we wind up disagreeing, which we may or may not, I wish that I was half as competent as you are and will always pay attention to what you have to say. |
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
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...and even if we wind up disagreeing, which we may or may not... It's all good! We're not arguing...just two folks discussing something we love. Quote:
I'm with you on the point that there are ways to obfuscate here... I see this as an issue. To obfuscate means to make something obscure or unclear. Only in the least of senses can it be said that's what's happening in a well-managed Cross Cut force. Instead, what we want to do is present a very clear narrative...just not one that includes the relative positions of the packets as meaningful in any way. I do see what you're saying, though. It's quite reasonable to say that in no way should a Cross Cut Force (which is actually much less a force and much more a bluff) be a person's "go to" technique to force a card. For that, there are far better ways. I simply don't think a blanket statement that it's completely worthless and never fooling is supportable. Thanks... |
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RiderBacks Loyal user 251 Posts |
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On Jan 11, 2016, Lance Pierce wrote: It's all good! We're not arguing...just two folks discussing something we love. I like your style! =) |
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Charles Gaff Loyal user 204 Posts |
I learned this cut with the x!!!!!d deck. The introduction of the folded paper and patter is the time misdirection that I've used many times to distract/misdirect/fool/direct the spectators focus. I think this is a great force, I've never had a bad reaction to it.
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