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WooverM Loyal user 285 Posts |
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On May 25, 2015, Cervier wrote: Addressing the implied(or explicit) claims made during the show is something I have no idea as to what will work best(also not having a lot of experience on off stage inquiries), and as we all know it does depend on the situation, so whatever you choose to do, I just hope it works out well. On the subject of the skill-set claim, if you say it is part of your skill-set/you developed your ability to do x over time/hard work, it is the absolute true, even if it is presented during the effect as a psychological test, you are still not claiming it is done through psychology(and the same applies for a supernatural ability test) when using the skill-set approach, and that'd why I said it claims absolutly nothing, and I still think it just tells the truth in a way that could be heard or understood diffrently without claiming any supernatural or psychological abilities. And Bob, I heard you tell that story during yours and Richard's Penguin lecture, and I laughed out loud, it's a story like no other!
Woover
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ProfessorJinksy New user Italy 93 Posts |
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On May 25, 2015, Slim King wrote: Speaking of claims. Slim, I heard you claim on the radio that you were working on a PhD in Astrology in England. I am assuming that there was no truth to that, was there? Just part of the patter? I'd call that pretty misrepresentative of the truth, if you were just making it up. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On May 25, 2015, David Thiel wrote: This phrase kinda threw me ... Why should person creating astonishment for any reason feel guilty? Why should any person exploring "inexplicable phenomena" feel guilty? Guess I am missing something. IS "magician's guilt"different form other types of guilt I don't feel either?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
In my opinion, the psychological /nlp approach is less of a damaging lie than the psychic one...
Despite the fact that everything we do has a finger in the psych-pie... Psychic is far richer and interesting if you can do it well... People will believe what they want to, regardless though - and its far more about their belief system and world structure than ours..to some, seeing a coin bend is real, to others its a trick, then the middle ground kinda don't care, they want to be pulled into the theatre/drama, the experience of it all...reality descends once you leave...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
To return to the OP if I were in those circumstances and area, I would say "I have belief, I believe that I can read a mind with your help, and if you don't help, I cant!"
For me, I would not be an apologist though, not saying you are, let them be "open minded to wonder" and have some fun... Part of me would also want to manifest stigmata too..
I've asked to be banned
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
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On May 27, 2015, funsway wrote: I've read that term as "the moment when a performer's world is turned upside down because someone is taking what you're doing as real." When a magician performs a trick...the audience knows it's a trick. Hopefully they have no idea HOW it was done...but they know his job is to fool them and that at least a portion of the attraction of magic is the puzzle. But here's the thing: regardless of how impossible it looks, the fact that it IS a trick is the unspoken agreement between performer and audience. IF people are sitting in a mentalism audience wondering how he did that "trick", they aren't seeing a mentalist. They're seeing a magician doing mental tricks. While this is a topic that has been beaten to death in 4384 different threads (this month), "Magician's Guilt" is actually a GOOD thing in the evolution from magician to mentalist. It's a critical part of the process. Why? When it occurs it's the first sign that the performer is doing something right -- given that his goal is to cross that desolate no man's land between magic and mentalism. I clearly remember the first time someone from the audience came up and asked me how long I had had the "Gift." I stammered. I was utterly flustered. I am reasonably sure my knees broke out in a sweat. I honestly wasn't sure what to say. I think I mumbled something about being an entertainer... It really shook me up. I was only able to really go for it -- full throttle mentalism -- once I clarified in my mind what I was about as a performer, precisely where my line in the sand was drawn (what I would do and not do...claim and not claim, etc.) and hit audiences with the very most convincing demonstrations of entertaining mind reading that I could possibly manage. Also being a member of a group like the PEA helps me stay focused on what I'm about as a performer. They have very strict standards about how their members, as ethical psychic entertainers, carry themselves...standards with which I am in complete agreement. Now I'm perfectly comfortable when people come up and talk to me after a show. I actually look forward to it because it's a constant affirmation that I am no longer a magician...but that I have turned the corner and am being perceived as a mentalist. I won't apologize for it. I've worked very hard to get here. Let me re-state: I've never made a claim to have psychic powers. When asked I know exactly what I will say -- and what I say is absolutely true. Getting over "magician's guilt" is only possible when you've totally settled all these matters internally. Until a performer has crossed that bridge and COMMITTED to his role as a mentalist, I don't think the transition is ever completely possible. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Mr Timothy Gray Veteran user Rue d'Auseil 364 Posts |
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On May 27, 2015, David Thiel wrote: Yes, yes, yes! Once you've lined up everything for yourself, as a performer, all your ducks in a row, and find that your performance runs consistent with your character, there is no 'magician's guilt'. These things must be in harmony with one another - and when 'magician's guilt' pops up, it's most likely due to an inconsistent aspect of your performance or character.
Yr. Obdt. Svt.,
Mr Timothy Gray Specializing in the Occult Arts of Fortune Telling, Magic & Mediumship; Est. 1986 |
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Amirá Inner circle MentalismCenter.com 5131 Posts |
Once again, disclaimers arent important in most situations.
In theatre, you are an artist taking artistic licence. In corporate work, you are an entertainer. If you want to convince skeptic about your psychic powers in scientific conditions is another thing but personally I use my psychic abilities (if that create discomfort for you, study the roots of the work psychic) in my performances to reach my goals. I let others experience psychic mysteries and the techniques that I use are secrets and they don't need to be explained. Makes me wonder why so many want to explain what they do. Maybe they don't even understand it itself and they feel the unconcious need of explain others how you do it (mystery?) to feel the need of self-understanding. Just do your work and do it the best you can. Best
Pablo
Performer and Author Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism www.mentalismcenter.com Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers www.arkanosophy.com |
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WooverM Loyal user 285 Posts |
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On May 27, 2015, Mr Timothy Gray wrote: Thank you two for this. I'm sure it will help me find the path that's right for me as for the presentation, it was great learning that.
Woover
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broothal Elite user Europe 448 Posts |
Sometimes, disclaimers works "opposite".
I say: "I do not read minds and I am certainly not a psychic!" and the audience goes "yeeeeeah right" |
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Magic.Maddy Inner circle 1861 Posts |
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On May 25, 2015, DWRackley wrote: Yes. Yes. And yes. I'm in Alabama. Right in the Bible Belt. Where the question is not "Do you go to church?" It's "What church do you go to?" It's given that you go to church. I'm a pastors son. My family doesn't believe there is anything wrong with it. But I have had many people object to what I do. Was showing someone a card trick after church when an older lady came up to me and said, "You know what my daddy would have done with those cards?" To which I respectfully replied, "No ma'am." "He would have thrown them in the fire! Be careful what you play with!" This experience taught me that I have to REALLY watch what I do and say at my performances. I perform at a lot of churches. It's probably about a 40/60 sit of school performances to church performances. I am weary about using cards at some performances. I was prepared for a show not to long ago. When I was setting up the person who hired me said, "Now we've had a couple of these teenagers ask if magic was bad or not and I tried to explain that it isn't but they said they aren't coming because it's of the devil." Who the crap tells their guest this kind of thing as they are setting up!? I was hired to do a mind reading show. After she told me that, I starting dropping pieces and changing scripting in my head to accomodate for the views. It's ridiculous. Recently after performing magic for an elementary school, the principle came up to me afterwards and said, "We all loved it and we definitely want you back! Next time we may have to call it something besides a magic show though. A lot of kids said their parents wouldn't let them come to a magic show." Recently I was asked to perform magic at a Christian school. They told me this, "We are super excited about having you! Just a few things. Don't say the word 'magic' because some kids will get scared. Don't say 'trick' because that sounds like a lie. Don't say 'illusion' because that promotes deceit." I was like what in the WORLD am I going to say!? Why hire me if you have those restrictions!? I almost got kicked out of a youth camp one time because I was hypnotizing some people in my bunk... No joke. A year later I almost got thrown at of the camp for doing a coin trick. I KID YOU NOT. I was later asked to perform an effect in front of everyone at the camp. After I almost got kicked out because of it. The moral of the story: in the Bible Belt it is 100% necessary to have a disclaimer whether you are performing mind reading or children's magic. It really sucks though because I get nervous before I do any show. Not because of the performance, but because I'm afraid I'm going to offend someone and get booed off the stage or taken to the stake to get burned. In a lot of my shows, I incorporate a message of God. I'm not a gospel illusionist by any stretch, but boy they sure do love it when I mention I'm a Christian and thrown in a little message. You have to play for your audiences. Here lately I've been using something along the lines of, "Hello ladies and gentleman. Tonight, we embark on a journey into our minds! Now I don't really know what to call what I do other than "an actor." I love acting. It is my biggest passion in life. And tonight, I get to play my favorite character. A mind reader! But for this to be any fun, I need you all to play along with me. Pretend that what I'm saying is true and real even though we all know it isn't. It's just like when you watch a movie. You know the characters in the movie aren't real. You know superman isn't really lifting the car. The actor is doing his part, the editing team does their part to make it seem like he is lifting the car, and then you do your part by believing he is lifting the car even though you know deep down that he isn't. The same hing must happen here tonight. I will act as if I'm reading minds then you should believe me even though we all know it isn't real. The difference is I have no editing team. I can't add things in post production with green screens. I can't have multiple camera cuts. I must resort to other methods. And in this live action movie, you too are an actor! All of you. You very well may be involved in this production. If you are invited up, don't be scared! Instead, trust the director (aka me) just as an actor would on set. Are we all set? Great! In that case.... Action! " I've enjoyed using this because it means for the rest of the show, I no longer have to explains feat in a different way. I can say I'm reading minds or predicting the future because it's part of this 'live action movie' that they are taking place in. I know many hate disclaimers. But for me, it absolutely is not an option. It is 100% necessity. -Madison- |
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Stu Montgomery Veteran user St Petersburg FL 354 Posts |
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On May 25, 2015, DWRackley wrote: This is equally risky in some of the more religiously conservative, remote western isles (& highlands) of Scotland. It would be a brave man who upset the local Presbyterians or Staunch Catholics. The movie, The Wicker Man (1973 & 2006) in reverse!
"Round about what is, lies a whole mysterious world of might be" Longfellow.
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MentalistCreationLab Inner circle 1528 Posts |
I do not waste my time using a disclaimer. As I have lost all of my magician guilt long ago. In fact I not sure I had any to begin with.
That said Madison does have a good point. I have worked in those markets such as Atlanta and I must admit stating something like that may have been useful at time. But then again its me and you know what I said completely guilt free. Although it is a valid point for using a disclaimer and one of the best reasons I heard in a very long time maybe the best. I have to think about it but it is a contender. But I still not going to use one. In fact I would be more likely to use a claimer than a disclaimer. Which I have done at times. Guilt free too. |
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