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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Legal rights for animals? (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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rockwall
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Http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......les.html

"Is it time that chimps are given legal rights? What about elephants, dolphins and whales?"

"That’s a joke, right?

No. The Nonhuman Rights Project, a group founded by Steven Wise, an attorney and animal rights activist, is deadly serious. And the question of whether the most intelligent non-human animals should have a legal status beyond mere objects has generated significant legal debate in recent years.

But how can a chimp have rights if it can’t even speak?

Nor can some mentally ill people, or unborn children for that matter. But they still have legal rights.
Tommy the circus chimp is a 'person' entitled to his liberty, US court told Chimpanzees given same rights as unlawfully detained prisoners by US court

So which “right” do they want chimps to be granted?

Specifically, the right to liberty – or “bodily freedom” – ie not to be stuck in a cage, or a science lab."
tommy
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Legal rights for animals I don't think exist. Rather there exists legal restrictions on what human beings can do to or with animals.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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I think that, at a minimum, animals have a right not to be tortured or abused. It seems that right is implicit in laws against animal cruelty.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Depends on how we are conceptualizing rights. On some views, if humans have obligations to animals, then the animals, by definition, have rights. This is Bob's point, I think.

I believe that we have obligations to animals. Minimally, as Bob suggests, not to torture or abuse them.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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My cat is cruel to mice and and said she cares not for your laws.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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TonyB2009
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Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.
mastermindreader
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Good one, tommy. He may well be in violation of mouse laws however. The mice just have an enforcement problem.
tommy
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Do we have the right to punish apes for things like rape or will they have their own courts of justice?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Magnus Eisengrim
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There is a big gap between having some rights and having the full palette of rights that adult humans in full possession of their faculties have.

Children have rights, but they are not identical with adult rights.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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I'm still wrapping my head around the American legal concept of corporate personhood.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
tommy
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Might is right and the corporations are mighty animals.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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S2000magician
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For the most part we treat our animals humanely.

However, according to Carlton, our tuxedo cat, we abuse him twice a day as we're far too slow when feeding him.

He yowls something fierce.
tommy
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One thing one must be wary of is the human beings who would use let’s say “good causes” to gain power over the people. The RSPCA, a private animal charity here, do some wonderful work but they do have some extraordinary powers now. They enjoy for example access to confidential information on the Police National Computer run by Association of Chief Police Officers that is also a private organization. It is police force for animals in effect but they can search your house and so on, at the drop of hat with rabbit in it.

If everything has rights and various groups of enforcement bodies, then you have none and are under total control.


Don’t walk on the grass!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
The Hermit
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.



And what is your criteria for determining self awareness. Dolphins are considered by many researchers to be smarter than chimps. Many animals can communicate with us. My cat tells me when the food bowl is empty. Also, the idea of ape communication is hotly debated as well.

Rights require responsibility. If we give them legal status do they suddenly have to comply with all laws that humans do? And, FACTUALLY chimps can't speak. And, Factually there are big differences between us and apes.
The Hermit
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On May 27, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......les.html

"Is it time that chimps are given legal rights? What about elephants, dolphins and whales?"

"That’s a joke, right?

No. The Nonhuman Rights Project, a group founded by Steven Wise, an attorney and animal rights activist, is deadly serious. And the question of whether the most intelligent non-human animals should have a legal status beyond mere objects has generated significant legal debate in recent years.


But how can a chimp have rights if it can’t even speak?

Nor can some mentally ill people, or unborn children for that matter. But they still have legal rights.
Tommy the circus chimp is a 'person' entitled to his liberty, US court told Chimpanzees given same rights as unlawfully detained prisoners by US court

So which “right” do they want chimps to be granted?

Specifically, the right to liberty – or “bodily freedom” – ie not to be stuck in a cage, or a science lab."


This is just another tactic by the animal liberation people. I say let Tommy become a contract worker for the circus. He can get his own trailer, drive himself, negotiate his performance salary, pay estimated taxes and collect soical security. I just think when he craps in the bread aisle at the grocery store, people will get tired of animal rights.
Kabbalah
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It is all fun until Travis eats your face off.

Apes are friggin wild animals.
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
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TonyB2009
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Hermit, great apes can communicate verbally. That has been established beyond debate. Within their own groups they have limited but definite 'vocabulary' and self-awareness. Genetically they are almost identical to us. We were actually able to interbreed with neanderthals, a species of great ape that has become extinct. That is how close to the other great apes we are.

If we give rights to children, the elderly with dementia, and those with mental handicaps (including those with conditions such as Downes Syndrome, who are genetically different from us) then it is difficult to argue that the great apes do not merit some rights. I am not saying give them the vote, but they are not like other animals.

If you lock a great ape in a laboratory and perform experiments on it, then kill it, in my view you are stepping way beyond any justifiable moral line.
Kabbalah
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

Within their own groups they have limited but definite 'vocabulary' and self-awareness.


So do many other animals.

So?
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
~Cliff Green

"The greatest tricks ever performed are not done at all. The audience simply think they see them."
~ John Northern Hilliard
S2000magician
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Genetically they are almost identical to us.

To be fair, they have to be extremely similar to humans genetically simply because they're animals, vertebrates, mammals.
tommy
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They don't have the gold.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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