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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Legal rights for animals? (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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I think he is talking about the Irish. My wife is Irish and I think her mother is a great ape. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rockwall
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I think it nice that you think your mother in law is great!
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, tommy wrote:
I think the penalties for cruelty to animals ought to far tougher. Over here they normally get away with a small fine for the most horrible acts.


It used to be that way in Washington State too. Until some punks beat and tortured a petting zoo donkey to death. The donkey's name was Pasado. The perpetrators basically got away with a wrist slap But the subsequent outrage resulted in the passage of the Pasado Law. Animal abuse crimes can now be prosecuted as felonies and convictions can carry up to five years in state prison:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.c......asado15m
TonyB2009
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Tommy's mother-in-law reminds me of a great comment made on the birth of my son. My ex's sister, who is a !@#$%, looked at the beautiful child and said: "He looks like a monkey. But then, his dad looks like an ape."

I thought it was brilliant, but it led to a bit of a family falling out on my ex's side!
Magnus Eisengrim
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"A man has no reason to be ashamed of having an ape for his grandfather. If there were an ancestor whom I should feel shame in recalling it would rather be a man—a man of restless and versatile intellect—who … plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them by an aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice."--attributed to T.H. Huxley by one of his students.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
RNK
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.

Little difference? You're kidding right?


Sadly I do not think Tony is kidding. Wow. Just wow.....
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.



Smile
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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+2
rockwall
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Quote:
On May 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.



Smile


Thumbs up, really Lobo? I'm a bit surprised.

So, the same legal status as ourselves? Can we explore this a little further?
Right of property ownership? Right of freedom? Are they then subject to the same laws? Can they vote? Pursue elected office? (OK, I'll admit, they may do better at that last one then some of our elected representatives!)
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 28, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On May 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.



Smile


Thumbs up, really Lobo? I'm a bit surprised.

So, the same legal status as ourselves? Can we explore this a little further?
Right of property ownership? Right of freedom? Are they then subject to the same laws? Can they vote? Pursue elected office? (OK, I'll admit, they may do better at that last one then some of our elected representatives!)



I should have clipped Tony's comment. The thumbs up was for some of it (intelligent, self-aware, communication; partial thumbs up for "little different.")
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
imgic
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, Ray Tupper. wrote:
Do they have a right to bear arms?


If given Legal rights we can arm bears...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
TonyB2009
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Let me clarify one thing. When I say that the other great apes should share our rights, obviously I do not mean every right. I am not suggesting giving them the vote, having them serve on juries, etc. I mean the basics - the right not to be held in captivity, the right not to be killed, not to be abused in the name of research, the right not to be property, the right not to have their habitat stolen. I stand over giving them all those rights.

And I predict the courts will too.
tommy
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I think we should give great apes their own country; some banana republic perhaps.

Although I suppose a monarchy might suit King Kong.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On May 28, 2015, tommy wrote:
I think we should give great apes their own country; some banana republic perhaps.

Although I suppose a monarchy might suit King Kong.

Great apes do have our own countries. You are living in one; I am living in another. Though whether you could classify either as a banana republic is open for debate.
tommy
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Well I don’t think great apes ought to be allowed to wonder around the city or drive just yet, as I don’t think they are quite ready to conform to it. That which does not conform does not operate efficiently. When in Rome do as the Romans.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Quote:
On May 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Let me clarify one thing. When I say that the other great apes should share our rights, obviously I do not mean every right. I am not suggesting giving them the vote, having them serve on juries, etc. I mean the basics - the right not to be held in captivity, the right not to be killed, not to be abused in the name of research, the right not to be property, the right not to have their habitat stolen. I stand over giving them all those rights.

And I predict the courts will too.

Never.
rockwall
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Quote:
On May 28, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Let me clarify one thing. When I say that the other great apes should share our rights, obviously I do not mean every right. I am not suggesting giving them the vote, having them serve on juries, etc. I mean the basics - the right not to be held in captivity, the right not to be killed, not to be abused in the name of research, the right not to be property, the right not to have their habitat stolen. I stand over giving them all those rights.

And I predict the courts will too.


So, to clarify, you think the great apes should be given the same legal status as us, just not the SAME legal status. I'm glad you clarified that. And since you don't believe that they should be held in captivity, I'm assuming one of the very basic rights they should have is to be able to come and go as they please.
TonyB2009
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Rockwall, if you visit Ireland you will not be given a vote here. That is reserved for citizens. But you will be allowed live, have fun, interact with the Irish, and will not be held captive, experimented on, or otherwise interfered with. It is not a difficult concept.

Yes I do believe other great apes should be allowed come and go as they please. And what that means in real terms is that we should leave them the hell alone, not destroy their habitat, and not drive them to extinction, as we are doing with gorillas and orangutans.
rockwall
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Tony, if a great ape comes to Ireland, will they let him come and go as he pleases? (I certainly hope they will me when I visit this summer!)
TonyB2009
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Rockwall, we welcome all great apes, gay, straight, American, Canadian, British - our doors are open. I hope you have a wonderful time here. We are a great ape friendly country. They even tolerate me.

What part are you visiting, or are you touring?
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