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acesover
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
No, Kabbalah. Self-awareness is very rare in the animal kingdom. The great apes have it. So do elephants. Dolphins, octopuses, and some species of birds have shown possible signs of it. But it far from being common. Many other animals do not have self-awareness. Possibly no other animals.

We great apes are different.

Only 150 years ago many people argued that black people did not deserve human rights. They could be owned and kept, and could be treated even worse than we treat the other great apes today. 270 years ago it was still legal to kill them. And if you had questioned it you would have met the disbelief you meet today for suggesting extending rights to the other great apes.

I will make a prediction here. In the lifetime of even the oldest of us, the argument will be won, and great apes will be given rights. And in thirty years time we will look back and wonder how we even questioned it.


And then they will vote. Are you serious Tony? When they get jobs how does their minimum wage work? Please Tony be sensible.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Magnus Eisengrim
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Whoa whoa. Not every creature with rights has the full slate of human rights. Not even all humans have full citizenship rights.

That animals have some rights that humans will be legally obliged to respect does not imply that they will all have

1. The full set of human rights, or
2. The same subset of rights.


Finally some animals could conceivably have rights that humans don't have.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
acesover
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On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Whoa whoa. Not every creature with rights has the full slate of human rights. Not even all humans have full citizenship rights.

That animals have some rights that humans will be legally obliged to respect does not imply that they will all have

1. The full set of human rights, or
2. The same subset of rights.


Finally some animals could conceivably have rights that humans don't have.


Yea like they can defecate in the streets because they do not know better and never will and are animals. Sorry to be so blunt but you people need a bump on the head to knock some sense into it Of course they should not be tortured. But just what rights are you planning on giving them and why? They are animals. We eat animals. Animals in the wild kill us. Ever try and reason with a great ape if he is upset? My advise would be...don't. And be all means don't give him 2nd amendment rights. Smile I do not believe they will practice safe firearms handling. Just posting this to show how silly of an arguement some of you are proposing. Again I am all for not torturing any animal. However I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right and I do not feel that any animal has that capability.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Magnus Eisengrim
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Let's start with the right not to be tortured. See, we agree on a first step.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
TomBoleware
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I say, all ‘pets’ should be treated with kindness; others should be treated with caution.

Tom
Kind People Are The Best Kind Of People

www.tomboleware.com
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
Again I am all for not torturing any animal. However I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right and I do not feel that any animal has that capability.


Glad to see that you agree that animals have the right not to be tortured. But your statement that one must understand a right in order to have it is nonsense. It's also rather surprising coming from a strident "right to life" advocate like yourself. I'm pretty sure that zygotes and fetuses don't understand the rights that you claim they have.

At least TRY to be consistent.
.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right


And people say that nobody ever changes his or her mind on abortion! This criterion, of course, eradicates rights for fetuses. Additionally, it takes away most or all rights for infants and the severely mentally retarded (apologies to the PC; I stopped buying the DSM after the 4th edition).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
Again I am all for not torturing any animal. However I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right and I do not feel that any animal has that capability.


Glad to see that you agree that animals have the right not to be tortured. But your statement that one must understand a right in order to have it is nonsense. It's also rather surprising coming from a strident "right to life" advocate like yourself. I'm pretty sure that zygotes and fetuses don't understand the rights that you claim they have.

At least TRY to be consistent.
.


Apparently, Bob types faster than I do.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Whoa whoa. Not every creature with rights has the full slate of human rights. Not even all humans have full citizenship rights.

That animals have some rights that humans will be legally obliged to respect does not imply that they will all have

1. The full set of human rights, or
2. The same subset of rights.


Finally some animals could conceivably have rights that humans don't have.


Yea like they can defecate in the streets because they do not know better and never will and are animals. Sorry to be so blunt but you people need a bump on the head to knock some sense into it Of course they should not be tortured. But just what rights are you planning on giving them and why? They are animals. We eat animals. Animals in the wild kill us. Ever try and reason with a great ape if he is upset? My advise would be...don't. And be all means don't give him 2nd amendment rights. Smile I do not believe they will practice safe firearms handling. Just posting this to show how silly of an arguement some of you are proposing. Again I am all for not torturing any animal. However I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right and I do not feel that any animal has that capability.


Some of us eat animals, anyway.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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I think we both spotted that glaring inconsistency at the same time, Lobo. I used to love when adverse witnesses would make statements like that in court. The cross-examination virtually writes itself. Smile
S2000magician
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Whoa whoa. Not every creature with rights has the full slate of human rights. Not even all humans have full citizenship rights.

That animals have some rights that humans will be legally obliged to respect does not imply that they will all have

1. The full set of human rights, or
2. The same subset of rights.


Finally some animals could conceivably have rights that humans don't have.

Yea like they can defecate in the streets because they do not know better and never will and are animals. Sorry to be so blunt but you people need a bump on the head to knock some sense into it Of course they should not be tortured. But just what rights are you planning on giving them and why? They are animals. We eat animals. Animals in the wild kill us. Ever try and reason with a great ape if he is upset? My advise would be...don't. And be all means don't give him 2nd amendment rights. Smile I do not believe they will practice safe firearms handling. Just posting this to show how silly of an arguement some of you are proposing. Again I am all for not torturing any animal. However I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right and I do not feel that any animal has that capability.

Some of y'all eat animals, anyway.

FTFY
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Whoa whoa. Not every creature with rights has the full slate of human rights. Not even all humans have full citizenship rights.

That animals have some rights that humans will be legally obliged to respect does not imply that they will all have

1. The full set of human rights, or
2. The same subset of rights.


Finally some animals could conceivably have rights that humans don't have.

Yea like they can defecate in the streets because they do not know better and never will and are animals. Sorry to be so blunt but you people need a bump on the head to knock some sense into it Of course they should not be tortured. But just what rights are you planning on giving them and why? They are animals. We eat animals. Animals in the wild kill us. Ever try and reason with a great ape if he is upset? My advise would be...don't. And be all means don't give him 2nd amendment rights. Smile I do not believe they will practice safe firearms handling. Just posting this to show how silly of an arguement some of you are proposing. Again I am all for not torturing any animal. However I feel that when one has a right, one must understand that right and I do not feel that any animal has that capability.

Some of y'all eat animals, anyway.

FTFY



I feel so southern!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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A short sketch:

POLICE OFFICER ACES (to arrested SUSPECT}: You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney one will be appointed for you. Do you understand these rights as I've explained them to you?"

SUSPECT: (gives a long blank stare before speaking): No. What are you talking about? I don't understand."

POLICE OFFICER ACES: "Well if you don't understand them, you don't have them. Turn around and bend over."

The End (copyright 2015 by Doctor Crow. All rights reserved. Performance rights may be purchased from the author.)
NYCTwister
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Office Aces?

Lmfao!!
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
LobowolfXXX
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Fast-forwarding the discussion:

Aces: Ok, awareness isn't the criterion, but human beings, even those who are not aware, have sous, and animals don't.

Various: Human beings don't have souls.

Various others: Yes they do.

Various: No they don't.

Various others: Yes they do.

Various: You're making a claim, so you have to prove it.

Various others: No I don't. Besides, you're making a claim, too, so you have to prove it, too.

Various: No I'm not.

Various others: Yes you are.

Lobo: You know, it's pointless to argue about whether or not human beings have souls, because it can't be proven. Time to agree to disagree.

Magnus: Logical positivism has been refuted.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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You forgot the last line:

Bob: Turn around and bend over.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
You forgot the last line:

Bob: Turn around and bend over.


That's the line for the feminists to give the female lawyer who doesn't want kids (see yearbook thread).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Smile Yes, it would fit there, but it was really just a gratuitous callback to the "sketch" I wrote a few posts back.
LobowolfXXX
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Hey, I'm all about the gratuitous callbacks.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
slowkneenuh
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Too bad the indigenous folks in the world (like our native americans) didn't receive as much thought and consideration.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/weshallremain/
John

"A poor workman always blames his tools"
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