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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Legal rights for animals? (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Let's start with the right not to be tortured. See, we agree on a first step.


Animals have that through laws for humans. Do animals have the right to torture other animals like my cat does mice? Or, the lion and the Gazelle? Can animals torture humans? I think we are confusing human restrictions vs animal rights.



I disagree. Those restrictions are in place because of a widespread belief that animals have rights. There's a reason why as a human being, you're restricted from disassembling your iPad or your kitchen table, but not your cat.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Starrpower
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On May 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
That makes no sense whatsoever. Can't you accept the simple and non-controversial notion that animal cruelty laws obviously recognize that animals at least have a right not to be abused?


No. Just because YOU say it's "simple and non-controversial" doesn't mean it's so. I don't think it recognizes animal rights at all, but rather established basic expectations of social behavior. We also have laws about property damage and we don't assume that objects have rights.
LobowolfXXX
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Your property example argues against your position, I believe. You can wantonly destroy just about every piece of property you own, as long as it's not inherently dangerous to others (arson) or fraudulent (insurance). So your analogy is actually an area of contrast. I also think that you break off your analysis too soon. Why were those "basic expectations of social behavior" established? Let alone established to the point that we impose criminal sanctions on those who violate them? I mean, it's a basic expectation of social behavior that you attempt to control your flatulence in public, but nobody's going to jail for violating that one. The reason that your burn your magic books on your fireplace and not your dog is precisely because there is a widespread belief that (some) animals have (moral) rights and should therefore also have legal rights.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
That makes no sense whatsoever. Can't you accept the simple and non-controversial notion that animal cruelty laws obviously recognize that animals at least have a right not to be abused?


No. Just because YOU say it's "simple and non-controversial" doesn't mean it's so. I don't think it recognizes animal rights at all, but rather established basic expectations of social behavior. We also have laws about property damage and we don't assume that objects have rights.


Of course completely missing the distinction that animals are no longer legally considered "objects" or chattels as they once were. There is a vast body of law that contradicts your statement completely. The "simple and non-controversial" observation that I made is NOT my idea, despite your characterizaton.

But the only support you are offering for your statement is because YOU say it's so.
magicalaurie
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I suggest animals are more than proficient with languages and communication. If anyone is lacking in those capacities, it's human beings. I'll also suggest that anyone who thinks animals don't have self awareness, is forgetting how important it is to also have awareness and understanding of others- and animals have both. Humans have spent way too much time focusing on themselves alone, I'd say. That's something other than self awareness- more like arrogance and narcissism.

http://downtheforestpath.com/2012/03/12/......rogance/
The Hermit
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But are animals arrogant and narcissistic? My cat certainly is.
magicfish
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, magicalaurie wrote:
I suggest animals are more than proficient with languages and communication. If anyone is lacking in those capacities, it's human beings. I'll also suggest that anyone who thinks animals don't have self awareness, is forgetting how important it is to also have awareness and understanding of others- and animals have both. Humans have spent way too much time focusing on themselves alone, I'd say. That's something other than self awareness- more like arrogance and narcissism.

http://downtheforestpath.com/2012/03/12/......rogance/

Sheer lunacy.
magicalaurie
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On May 30, 2015, magicfish wrote:
Sheer lunacy.


Looks like bait to me, magicfish.
tommy
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Animals think plants ought to have rights and the plants, rocks. The rock thinks it is the closest thing to god. Which is why Jacob rested his head on a rock to get in touch with god and why wise men live up the mountain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1OZCHixR0
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Starrpower
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
The "simple and non-controversial" observation that I made is NOT my idea, despite your characterizaton.

But the only support you are offering for your statement is because YOU say it's so.


It's your observation and you support the notion, which is wrong. It is not "non-controversial" by the very fact we are discussing it and not all in agreement. Because people are compassionate and choose not to inflict pain on animals in no way suggests that animals have rights. It only indicates that we feel a just society should not torture lesser beings. It's about our behavior, not their rights.
LobowolfXXX
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The issue of rights informs a society's decisions about which behaviors are acceptable.
You can't own human beings because we feel that in a just society, people shouldn't own human beings, because we feel that human beings have rights. You can own a TV set because we don't feel that in a just society you shouldn't have TV sets because we don't feel that TV sets have rights.

By "we," I mean enough legislators or voters to be relevant.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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The Greens are running the world. Alligators, litigators, what's the difference?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Starrpower
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Quote:
On May 31, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The issue of rights informs a society's decisions about which behaviors are acceptable.
You can't own human beings because we feel that in a just society, people shouldn't own human beings, because we feel that human beings have rights. You can own a TV set because we don't feel that in a just society you shouldn't have TV sets because we don't feel that TV sets have rights.

By "we," I mean enough legislators or voters to be relevant.


So following that logic, I CAN own a cat, so the cat has no more rights than a TV?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 31, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
Quote:
On May 31, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The issue of rights informs a society's decisions about which behaviors are acceptable.
You can't own human beings because we feel that in a just society, people shouldn't own human beings, because we feel that human beings have rights. You can own a TV set because we don't feel that in a just society you shouldn't have TV sets because we don't feel that TV sets have rights.

By "we," I mean enough legislators or voters to be relevant.


So following that logic, I CAN own a cat, so the cat has no more rights than a TV?



The cat has more rights than the TV. You can sit on your front lawn and disassemble your TV.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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TVs, they can communicate as well. It also owns you.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Starrpower
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I am pretty sure my cats own me, too.
Dougini
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Legal Rights For Animals? What about these? (WARNING! GRAPHIC!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-......ear.html

Doug
tommy
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Nathan Winograd, the director of the No Kill Advocacy Center, claims that PETA has killed nearly 30,000 animals in the last 11 years.

PETA says euthanasia figures are 'distorted,' and do not include the nearly 10,000 animals saved and put up for adoption. (A: Well if they killed 30,000... [Alan laughing.] Well, we might have saved 10,000, right.)

Everything, folks, out there is a racket.... even the news agencies... and everything else… is a racket. And your charities too. This is the state of humanity today... as we go down the tubes, without culture or anything else – and I’m talking about NATURAL culture, that works.

From Hamish and myself from Ontario, Canada, it’s good night and may your God or your Gods GO with you. – Alan Watt http://cuttingthroughthematrix.com/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-......ome.html
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2015, tommy wrote:
Nathan Winograd, the director of the No Kill Advocacy Center, claims that PETA has killed nearly 30,000 animals in the last 11 years.

PETA says euthanasia figures are 'distorted,' and do not include the nearly 10,000 animals saved and put up for adoption. (A: Well if they killed 30,000... [Alan laughing.] Well, we might have saved 10,000, right.)

Everything, folks, out there is a racket.... even the news agencies... and everything else… is a racket. And your charities too. This is the state of humanity today... as we go down the tubes, without culture or anything else – and I’m talking about NATURAL culture, that works.

From Hamish and myself from Ontario, Canada, it’s good night and may your God or your Gods GO with you. – Alan Watt http://cuttingthroughthematrix.com/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-......ome.html



I had the pleasure of meetimg Winograd after a lecture at law school. He's done some amazing work. A former professor of mine is very well acquainted with him. Nathan and his family walk the walk when it comes to reducing animal suffering
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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