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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Legal rights for animals? (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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The Hermit
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Hermit, great apes can communicate verbally. That has been established beyond debate. Within their own groups they have limited but definite 'vocabulary' and self-awareness. Genetically they are almost identical to us. We were actually able to interbreed with neanderthals, a species of great ape that has become extinct. That is how close to the other great apes we are.

If we give rights to children, the elderly with dementia, and those with mental handicaps (including those with conditions such as Downes Syndrome, who are genetically different from us) then it is difficult to argue that the great apes do not merit some rights. I am not saying give them the vote, but they are not like other animals.

If you lock a great ape in a laboratory and perform experiments on it, then kill it, in my view you are stepping way beyond any justifiable moral line.


Speaking and LIMITED verbal communication are different. Dolphins communicate verbally as well. So do a host of animals. As to the 'genetically they are identical' - I assume you mean shared DNA at 99%. So what. You share 85% of your DNA with a pumpkin. Does that make us almost identical to pumpkins? Some of us maybe.

When the state bestows 'rights' it requires responsibilities. If we give them rights, what responsibilities do they have? I will agree they are due the inalienable rights. Unfortunately, they are property in all our other laws. Whose rights win?
S2000magician
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
If you lock a great ape in a laboratory and perform experiments on it, then kill it, in my view you are stepping way beyond any justifiable moral line.

What if you do only two of those three things?
S2000magician
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
We were actually able to interbreed with neanderthals, a species of great ape that has become extinct.

Evidently, most biologists believe that Neanderthals were not great apes, but humans. At best, their being great apes is debatable.
tommy
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Monkey see monkey do.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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The Hermit
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
We were actually able to interbreed with neanderthals, a species of great ape that has become extinct. That is how close to the other great apes we are.


Do you just make this stuff up?
TonyB2009
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No, Kabbalah. Self-awareness is very rare in the animal kingdom. The great apes have it. So do elephants. Dolphins, octopuses, and some species of birds have shown possible signs of it. But it far from being common. Many other animals do not have self-awareness. Possibly no other animals.

We great apes are different.

Only 150 years ago many people argued that black people did not deserve human rights. They could be owned and kept, and could be treated even worse than we treat the other great apes today. 270 years ago it was still legal to kill them. And if you had questioned it you would have met the disbelief you meet today for suggesting extending rights to the other great apes.

I will make a prediction here. In the lifetime of even the oldest of us, the argument will be won, and great apes will be given rights. And in thirty years time we will look back and wonder how we even questioned it.
The Hermit
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So Kabbalah says that apes have self awareness? You got quite a line up of aware animals. What about squid? What is the test for self awareness you subscribe to? I don't know what strain of Kabbalah you're reading, but it is interesting.

Why bring black people into it. Hey you know the difference between black people and animals - BLACK PEOPLE ARE HUMAN. What people in the west argued about slavery is irrelevant to animal rights.

We aren't great apes, we're humans.

Jolly good on your prediction. What are those rights and how will they be handled? Based on your other statements, we need octopus rights as well. Think about that next time you're at the sushi bar.
ZachDavenport
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Humans are primates, not apes. If the animals themselves express a desire to have rights in the human world, then it should be considered, but right now humans are trying to give rights to something that just wants a banana and space to live.
Reality is a real killjoy.
tommy
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Who questions anything today?
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rockwall
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
No, Kabbalah. Self-awareness is very rare in the animal kingdom. The great apes have it. So do elephants. Dolphins, octopuses, and some species of birds have shown possible signs of it. But it far from being common. Many other animals do not have self-awareness. Possibly no other animals.

We great apes are different.

Only 150 years ago many people argued that black people did not deserve human rights. They could be owned and kept, and could be treated even worse than we treat the other great apes today. 270 years ago it was still legal to kill them. And if you had questioned it you would have met the disbelief you meet today for suggesting extending rights to the other great apes.

I will make a prediction here. In the lifetime of even the oldest of us, the argument will be won, and great apes will be given rights. And in thirty years time we will look back and wonder how we even questioned it.


I suspect your prediction may be right Tony. I find you to be a very progressive thinker!
LobowolfXXX
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"This metaphor of trumps leads naturally to the question of whether there is any right that has priority to absolutely all other normative considerations: whether there is an “ace of rights.” Gewirth (1981) asserts that there is at least one such absolute right: the right of all persons not to be made the victim of a homicidal project"


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Ray Tupper.
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
I will make a prediction here. In the lifetime of even the oldest of us, the argument will be won, and great apes will be given rights. And in thirty years time we will look back and wonder how we even questioned it.

I'll give you 50-1, with a minimum of a grand bet.
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes!
When do we want it?
C*nt!
Kabbalah
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:

I will make a prediction here. In the lifetime of even the oldest of us, the argument will be won, and great apes will be given rights. And in thirty years time we will look back and wonder how we even questioned it.


You sir, are insane!
"Long may magicians fascinate and continue to be fascinated by the mystery potential in a pack of cards."
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Ray Tupper.
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Do they have a right to bear arms?
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes!
When do we want it?
C*nt!
rockwall
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Only in the US.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 27, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
If you lock a great ape in a laboratory and perform experiments on it, then kill it, in my view you are stepping way beyond any justifiable moral line.

What if you do only two of those three things?


Reminds me of a sign at a store:

"We can do it:
A) Fast
B) Well
C) Inexpensively
You pick any 2"
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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I think the penalties for cruelty to animals ought to far tougher. Over here they normally get away with a small fine for the most horrible acts.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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TonyB2009
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On May 27, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
Humans are primates, not apes.

Both yourself and Hermit are wrong on this. Humans, monkeys, great apes, lesser apes and lemurs are all part of the primate family. Among the primates humans are classified as great apes, along with two species of chimp, two species of gorilla, two species of orangutan, and a number of extinct species such as neanderthals. We share a huge amount of genetic similarities with the other great apes, especially chimps. Far too many for me to be comfortable treating them the way we do.
LobowolfXXX
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You're all right. And all wrong. It can be either.

"In summary, there are three common uses of the term "ape": English-speaking non-biologists may not distinguish between "monkeys" and "apes", or may use "ape" for any tailless monkey or non-human hominoid, whereas English-speaking biologists commonly use the term "ape" for all non-human hominoids as shown above.

In recent years, biologists have generally preferred to use only monophyletic groups in classifications;[16] that is, only groups which include all the descendants of a common ancestor.[17] The superfamily Hominoidea is one such group (or "clade"). Some then use the term "ape" to mean all the members of the superfamily Hominoidea. For example, in a 2005 book, Benton wrote "The apes, Hominoidea, today include the gibbons and orang-utan ... the gorilla and chimpanzee ... and humans".[6] The group traditionally called "apes" by biologists is then called the "non-human apes""
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicfish
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On May 27, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
Factually, chimps can speak. They can be trained to use sign language, and can communicate with us.

I have no issue at all with the rest of the great apes being given the same legal status as ourselves. There is little difference between them and us. Other branches of the evolutionary tree I am happy to consider animals (I don't believe that dolphins, for instance, are the brightest creatures on the planet). But the great apes are different. They are intelligent, self-aware, and can communicate with us. That is good enough for me.

I think self-awareness is a critical thing. All us great apes seem to have it, as do elephants. Other animals (with a few possible exceptions) don't seem to have it. Maybe self-awareness could be the dividing line. But I am in favour of all great apes sharing the same rights.

Little difference? You're kidding right?
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