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Magnus Eisengrim
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Smart kid.

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The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Can she do it on 95.2%?

The raw wage gap data shows that a woman would earn roughly 73.7% to 77% of what a man would earn over their lifetime. However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as job position, total hours worked, number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, the U.S. Department of Labor found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%.[5]
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Can she do it on 95.2%?

The raw wage gap data shows that a woman would earn roughly 73.7% to 77% of what a man would earn over their lifetime. However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as job position, total hours worked, number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, the U.S. Department of Labor found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%.[5]


Looking at the [url=http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf]source study[/quote]

Quote:
Economic research has identified many factors that account for portions of the gender wage gap. Some of the factors are consequences of differences in decisions made by women and men in balancing their work, personal, and family lives. These factors include their human capital development, their work experience, the occupations and industries in which they work, and interruptions in their careers.

Quantitative estimates of the effects of some factors, such as occupation and industry, can most easily be derived using data for very large numbers of workers, so that the detailed groupings of employees or employers that existing research indicates best describe the effects of the factors are adequately represented. Conversely, quantitative estimates of other factors, such as work experience and career interruptions, can most readily be obtained using data that describe the behavior of individual workers over extended time periods. The longitudinal data bases that contain such information include too few workers, however, to support adequate analysis of factors like occupation and industry; whereas the cross-sectional data bases that include enough workers to enable analysis of factors like occupation and industry do not collect data on individual workers over long enough periods to support adequate analysis of factors like work experience and job tenure.

As a result, it has not been possible to develop reliable estimates of the total percentage of the raw gender wage gap for which all of the factors that have been separately found to contribute to the gap collectively account. In this study, an attempt has been made to use data from a large cross-sectional database, the Outgoing Rotation Group files of the 2007 CPS, to construct variables that satisfactorily characterize factors whose effects have previously been estimated only using longitudinal data, so that reliable estimates of those effects can be derived in an analysis of the cross-sectional data. Specifically, variables have been developed to represent career interruption among workers with specific gender, age, and number of children. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Exactly.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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I think that there are many subtleties buried in that quotation.

1. If only women would stop having babies, they'd only make a little less than men.
2. Female mechanics make nearly 95% of what male mechanics make. Why don't more women enter the trade?

Exactly
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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FWIW, studies show that gay females earn more than straight ones.

"In Britain, lesbians are paid an average of eight per cent more than straight women, with the trend even more extreme in other western countries. In the US, the difference is 20 per cent. Conversely gay men face a pay penalty, earning five per cent less than heterosexual men in the UK - rising to nine per cent in Germany and 12 per cent in Canada."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I think that there are many subtleties buried in that quotation.

1. If only women would stop having babies, they'd only make a little less than men.
2. Female mechanics make nearly 95% of what male mechanics make. Why don't more women enter the trade?

Exactly


3. The 75% figure in the yearbook is specious.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I think that there are many subtleties buried in that quotation.

1. If only women would stop having babies, they'd only make a little less than men.
2. Female mechanics make nearly 95% of what male mechanics make. Why don't more women enter the trade?

Exactly


3. The 75% figure in the yearbook is specious.


If only the yearbook would have allowed her to space to say "79.6 cents to the dollar, based on a 2008 study commissioned by the US department of labor". It would have been much funnier, and would have driven home the point much more effectively.

She missed her chance.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Oh, I think she drove her point home quite well. Unfortunately at the expense of the reality, but what's accuracy when you're making a political statement?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I think that there are many subtleties buried in that quotation.

1. If only women would stop having babies, they'd only make a little less than men.
2. Female mechanics make nearly 95% of what male mechanics make. Why don't more women enter the trade?

Exactly



Equality is about the ability to make the same choices as everyone else. Those choices have consequences. An example from my Feminist a Legal Theory class:

A woman and a man become attorneys at the same firm at the same time. After a few years, the woman has a baby and decides to take a year off. Upon her return, after a few more years, the man, who has worked about 2,500 more hours than she has, makes partner a year before she does and makes more money that year and for the rest of their careers.

The professor attributes this to sexism and believes that in a sexism-less society, the woman wouldn't fall behind the man on the partnership track. She should make what he makes and get credit for the year that she didn't being in money to the firm or gain experience. In reality, she's exactly in the position that a man who chose to take a year off to spend time with his family would be in.

Moreover, giving her that year would completely screw over any woman who opted not to take the year off.

What's the difference between the starting salary for men and women among professors at the local universities where you live? In my work experience as a teacher, first year starting salaries were fixed. As a lawyer, first year starting salaries were fixed. When my former roommate was a police officer, salaries were fixed. Which employers are you aware of that pay less to women with the same experience and qualifications? If "rich" is your goal, feminism isn't the answers - choosing a high-paying occupation and making personal life sacrifices is. Not a lot of rich male teachers. Not a lot of rich males taking years off to spend more time with the children (at least not until AFTER they're rich).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Not a lot of rich males giving birth either.
rockwall
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, balducci wrote:
FWIW, studies show that gay females earn more than straight ones.

"In Britain, lesbians are paid an average of eight per cent more than straight women, with the trend even more extreme in other western countries. In the US, the difference is 20 per cent. Conversely gay men face a pay penalty, earning five per cent less than heterosexual men in the UK - rising to nine per cent in Germany and 12 per cent in Canada."


I somehow doubt that the lady in the OP finds it unfair that she'll be making more than her heterosexual female counterparts.
Starrpower
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Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I think that there are many subtleties buried in that quotation.

1. If only women would stop having babies, they'd only make a little less than men.


Interesting conclusion. So do you feel that women who take care of their children or take maternity leaves should be paid for that time by someone who had not part in making that child?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
Quote:
On May 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I think that there are many subtleties buried in that quotation.

1. If only women would stop having babies, they'd only make a little less than men.


Interesting conclusion. So do you feel that women who take care of their children or take maternity leaves should be paid for that time by someone who had not part in making that child?


Who knows what the best solution is. The fact remains that maternity becomes a short term--income loss/reduction--as well as a long-term--reduced income, reduced advancement, reduced salary, reduced pension--financial burden on women.

I don't know what the idea solution is. But I do know that women earn less than men, partially because of maternity. And I do think they deserve better than that.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Starrpower
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We all have setbacks. Some we can control, others we can't. I am not 7' tall and as a result I make less than an NBA star. Poor me ... someone should do something about this lack of equality that is not my fault!

Is monetary gain the most important component to determine equability?
LobowolfXXX
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Many (I'm pretty sure it's "most," but I'll avoid making that claim) women who are parents will tell you that having children was the most rewarding thing they've ever done. So there is some mitigation there.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Starrpower
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You beat me to it! I was just amending my post when yours came through. Here is what I was going to add:

Perhaps a lifetime of joy and satisfaction that is gained by being able to deliver a new life into the world -- something I as a man can't do -- is worth fewer dollars.

(For the record, all my female colleagues make exactly the same salary as me, and my company's woman president make far more. When I was teaching, all teachers -- male and female -- made the same.)
Magnus Eisengrim
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Being female is a "setback"? I guess that's the point, eh?


BTW Starrpower, your point about employees making the same is the central issue here.

You use the example of teachers, and it's a very good and clear one. In most jurisdictions, teacher salary depends on two variables: amount of relevant education and number of years of service.

Suppose M (a male) and F (a female) have equivalent education and no experience. They are both hired to the same school jurisdiction, and are on the same salary grid. Their salaries are identical until age 30, when F becomes pregnant. She takes a leave from her job for the first year of her child's life. She now lags behind M on the experience grid and will make less money than him on her return to the classroom. (In most teacher salary grids there is a cap, so eventually they will both be at the top of the grid with nowhere to go.)

Her maternity leave does give her some income, but it's less than a full salary.

When she returns, she will not have her established position back in most cases, and will have to re-enter in a new position and will essentially be a rookie wherever she teaches.

If she has more than one child, she'll go through the process and lag one more time.

If she spends more than her allotted maternity leave with the children, she will have to give up her income and re-enter the workforce well behind M in terms of salary and experience. She will not have company benefits, including health care. (This also applies to men who take time to raise children. For social reasons, this is far less common, but is slowly changing.)

Of course, each year off makes promotion more difficult, and it is very expensive in terms of pension. F will have to work much older than M and might not every catch up in terms of pension benefits.

I agree that (in North America, at least) teaching is one of the most gender-fair employments available. And yet, there are still structures that provide barriers to women.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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To opt to have a child is a decision with inherent financial consequences. It seems to me that the person making that choice should be the one to bear those consequences.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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So cute that men can refer to female reproduction as a "decision with inherent financial consequences". No. We have an economic system that enforces economic consequences on women. There is nothing "inherent" about it.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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