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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Being female is a "setback"? I guess that's the point, eh?


BTW Starrpower, your point about employees making the same is the central issue here.

You use the example of teachers, and it's a very good and clear one. In most jurisdictions, teacher salary depends on two variables: amount of relevant education and number of years of service.

Suppose M (a male) and F (a female) have equivalent education and no experience. They are both hired to the same school jurisdiction, and are on the same salary grid. Their salaries are identical until age 30, when F becomes pregnant. She takes a leave from her job for the first year of her child's life. She now lags behind M on the experience grid and will make less money than him on her return to the classroom. (In most teacher salary grids there is a cap, so eventually they will both be at the top of the grid with nowhere to go.)

Her maternity leave does give her some income, but it's less than a full salary.

When she returns, she will not have her established position back in most cases, and will have to re-enter in a new position and will essentially be a rookie wherever she teaches.

If she has more than one child, she'll go through the process and lag one more time.

If she spends more than her allotted maternity leave with the children, she will have to give up her income and re-enter the workforce well behind M in terms of salary and experience. She will not have company benefits, including health care. (This also applies to men who take time to raise children. For social reasons, this is far less common, but is slowly changing.)

Of course, each year off makes promotion more difficult, and it is very expensive in terms of pension. F will have to work much older than M and might not every catch up in terms of pension benefits.

I agree that (in North America, at least) teaching is one of the most gender-fair employments available. And yet, there are still structures that provide barriers to women.


Being female isn't the setback; opting to disappear from the workforce is. And as we hear all the time in the abortion debate, it IS a choice. Making your two hypothetical teachers both female illustrates the fallacy. Let's say one of them doesn't want children; now you would have that teacher make no more money than the one with one year's less experience and who has spent a couple of thousand fewer hours teaching.

In fact, let's take a childless woman and a man who takes paternity leave. Of course the woman should make more (other things being equal).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
So cute that men can refer to female reproduction as a "decision with inherent financial consequences". No. We have an economic system that enforces economic consequences on women. There is nothing "inherent" about it.


I suppose in a society where food, clothing, education, health care, and everything else were free (and by "free," I mean actually free, not "paid for by somebody else," though that's a "cute" definition, too), the consequences wouldn't be inherent.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
So cute that men can refer to female reproduction as a "decision with inherent financial consequences". No. We have an economic system that enforces economic consequences on women. There is nothing "inherent" about it.



We have an economic system that imposes economic consequences on PARENTS, male and female (as does every other economic system in the western world with which I'm familiar), and no similar economic consequences on childless people of EITHER sex. As a father, you spent money housing, feeding, clothing, and possibly educating your children, true or false? No childless woman had similar expenses.

I suspect if we brought my 42-year old childless-by-choice ex-girlfriend into the discussion and you made a ballpark estimate of how much you spent raising your children, she'd think it was cute (by which I mean "hilarious") that you think such expenses are gender-specific.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
lunatik
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Women can stop having abortions if they'd just keep their legs closed. Why don't they just play with themselves?
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
LobowolfXXX
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As an aside, I note (before S2000 gets to this thread) that the girl in the yearbook is suggesting that women earn 3/400 of the amount that men earn.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As an aside, I note (before S2000 gets to this thread) that the girl in the yearbook is suggesting that women earn 3/400 of the amount that men earn.


Or, more likely, the student who typeset the yearbook.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, lunatik wrote:
Women can stop having abortions if they'd just keep their legs closed. Why don't they just play with themselves?


Image
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As an aside, I note (before S2000 gets to this thread) that the girl in the yearbook is suggesting that women earn 3/400 of the amount that men earn.


Or, more likely, the student who typeset the yearbook.



Probably true...I'm inclined to suspect that you're right in characterizing the girl in the picture as a smart kid.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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If she's planning on being an entrepreneur, maybe the Association of Libertarian Feminists could help her by lobbying to limit the amount she'll be forced to pay people not to work.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
lunatik
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, lunatik wrote:
Women can stop having abortions if they'd just keep their legs closed. Why don't they just play with themselves?


Image



as I thought, no intelligent response....
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
S2000magician
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As an aside, I note (before S2000 gets to this thread) that the girl in the yearbook is suggesting that women earn 3/400 of the amount that men earn.

I just got into Toronto. What do I know?
S2000magician
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, lunatik wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, lunatik wrote:
Women can stop having abortions if they'd just keep their legs closed. Why don't they just play with themselves?

Image

as I thought, no intelligent response....

Surely you're not honestly suggesting that your post merits an intelligent response.
lunatik
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Quote:
On May 30, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, lunatik wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On May 30, 2015, lunatik wrote:
Women can stop having abortions if they'd just keep their legs closed. Why don't they just play with themselves?

Image

as I thought, no intelligent response....

Surely you're not honestly suggesting that your post merits an intelligent response.


Surely In light of women who keep having abortions, killing their children, why not? If someone needs to have an orgasm and can't or won't take on the responsibility of raising a child, then they shouldn't be having sex. They can buy a carrot and have at it, no child will be conceived for them to kill.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
LobowolfXXX
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I can only surmise that Magnus felt that an intelligent response would have been disproportionate. I think that your post is far afield from the topic of gender/wage equality, and also about as insightful as rhetorically wondering why people complain about car theft, when all they have to do to avoid is is not own a car. So I can't say that I'd have spent much formulating a response, either.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Starrpower
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Lobo, you are comparing a criminal act (having your car stolen) to an act of personal choice (having sex). Perhaps he was a bit crude in his example, but his conclusions are reasonable. However, I agree that this is a tad off topic.
LobowolfXXX
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His conclusions are reasonable if you mean accurate, but also trivial. If the argument is that celibate people never have cause to get abortions, I don't think we're going to see much of a debate arising.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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