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Aus Inner circle Australia 1005 Posts |
I'm sorry ed if you feel that's what I have done, I have to admit my question was answered some time ago from the original post to this thread and I had this feeling some how that everything was getting side tracked to my personal beliefs. I now realize I should have stop a lot sooner then I did and I take full responsibility for that, my intention was not to assault religion but simply ask the question in my first post.
I'll stop posting as of now and offer sincerest apologizes. Magically Aus |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On Jun 10, 2015, Aus wrote: Did you actually READ my post? Fr. Lemaitre and Br. Gregor Mendel were NOT creation scientists. You know what? The God in which you do not believe in gave you free will. Believe what you wish. You are in my prayers Aus. +In Christ, Vlad |
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Mike Ince Inner circle 2048 Posts |
Today's podcast of R.C. Sproul's "Renewing Your Mind" series is entitled "No Idols". Yesterday's entry is worth a listen, too. I'm thinking about what he said today regarding the use of Magic in religious practice. Often Christians think if they say the right words in prayer, they can control God. They treat the Holy Spirit as a magical force to be used to control circumstances.
Idolatry also involves invoking something other than God for help or guidance. I've performed mentalism for several years and I think it's strong to use trickery to reveal someone's star sign. I don't want to do that in a way that might lend credence to astrology, however, so I usually don't reveal star signs. Now, some performers will say, "astrology isn't something I believe in, but using the tools of the so-called psychic I can tell your sign is Taurus". The question is, did your effect draw someone close to the truth or closer to reliance on lies? Does your performance lead others to a dry well like astrology or some other form of idolatry?
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On Jun 17, 2015, Mike Ince wrote: Hi Mike, There is little which we Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics agree with R.C. Sproul but on THIS matter, Mr. Sproul is SPOT ON. I hasten to add that I admire the people in this section of the forum who use their talents to teach others, but, there are many here who also recognize the dangers inherent both in using performance magic to "teach" the Truth of our God as well as using "magick." Someone mentioned that magic is storytelling and that is true. I don't believe there is nothing wrong with using magic to illustrate something one wishes to teach. But, when the magic waters down the message then it's time to reassess. But what Sproul is talking about is even more serious. As Christians we shouldn't even be messing with astrology. How we live in Him and what we do in His Name FOR Him is what matters, not what star sign someone has. The following statement is not an indictment of Gospel magic but rather my own view informed by my faith. I am a Christian who consciously AVOIDS using performance magic to "teach" the Gospels. It is far too easy to fall into grievous error when interpreting that for which most of us lack the qualification to do so. I believe that there is a HUGE difference between teaching Christian principles and interpreting the Gospels. The latter should be left to priests, bishops, and ministers. The former should be done carefully and magic should ONLY be an adjunct. People might ask why then do I visit this part of The Café. It's simple really. I am a Christian and I come here because I love to read the testimonies of others. Reading your words today reminds me of the perils of false religions and beliefs such as astrology, numerology, and other "ologies" that have no basis in reality. Thank you Mike for the GREAT post. +In Him, Vlad |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8823 Posts |
I also listened to the broadcast yesterday.
We/I can make idols of many things... Food Technology..( I saw a post this morning asking- What if we treated our Bibles as we do our I-phone/Android Cell phones... What others think of us.... Harris still to old to know anything
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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sunnymagician New user 19 Posts |
I know the case of an young priest who put up a magic show based on biblical incidents. The church told him to stop it, saying that such shows would create the impression that the miracles performed by Christ also would be counted as magic.
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On Jun 21, 2015, sunnymagician wrote: That sounds accurate - and CORRECT. Priests in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches ARE allowed to perform magic, but, the churches are VERY clear that the Gospel should NEVER be taught in a manner that could in any way appear to diminish it or cause confusion. This is not commentary or indictment, but, there are relatively few of we Orthodox or Roman Catholics who are Gospel magicians. It's not an indictment against the vast majority of protestants who are, but rather that our churches teach that the Gospels must be interpreted by priests and bishops and as an Orthodox Christian it works for me. Again, I am not judging Gospel magicians who interpret Holy Scripture as this is not a theology forum. That said, I'm not certain how your observation fits the conversation as Catholics and Orthodox do NOT believe in idols nor do we worship them and I hope you are not implying that or that the Catholic or Orthodox church was wrong in admonishing the priest and making him stop. Both churches have VERY clear teaching to avoid confusion such that people understand that Christ's miracles ALWAYS were part of a lesson and as such, the Christology of the churches is uncompromising in this. It has been that way for 2000 years and will be until the end of days. +In Him, Vlad |
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10020 Posts |
I have reread all of these posts with interest -- more as a student of human decision make than a questioner of faith or the validity of religion.
Yet, one statement by Aus bothers me : "since all religions profess themselves to be THE ONLY WORD OF GOD." This is so obviously false that I am surprised no one else commented. I have studied religiosity and world religions for 60 years. It simply is not factual. Many religions profess to have a sure path to God, and most err in attempting to limit God to their version of human perfection. Some Christians claim that the Bible is the only true word of God (which version? Which Century? Which translation. What of the a passeges deliberately left out for political reasons?) But none of that can be cited as claiming to have the "Only word of God." It is possibly this shaky foundation of thought that causes Aus some angst. I understand that when Thomas Merton was asked to teach a class at Harvard, he started off with saying, "This class will be taught on the premise that all religions are correct." HAlf the student sleft. Tose that reamined commented that it was the best class they ever took in college. Somewhere between unquestioned acceptance of dogma and rejection of any notion beyond man's imagineering is a comfort zone in which an individual cna both question and enjoy the companionship of others in their search -- regardless of what that search is. To the extent that performance magic can cause a person to question closely held "believed things" it is good. To the extent that it is used for ego enhancement or the desire to foist one's beliefs on another it is less good. Man has both gifts and givens including the ability to question and a analyze information. To refuse to use these gifts is to deny your birthright and can hardly bring you "closer to God" if that is your focus. For me, I observe how a person treats strangers, their mother and their dog. I consider how well they use reasoning to support their claims. Do they "walk the talk?" Only then might I choose to consider their opinion on religion or any matter. The noted statement above cause my to not take Aus's opinions very seriously. In finality it may not be the answers a person has, but the quality of their questions that matters -- if one chooses to believe in "something after." There is an ancient thought that when you meet God face-to-face you will be allowed to ask one question. Living is a way of preparing you to ask that question. Performing magic and observing people's awe and wonder prepares me to find awe and wonder in everyday life. Listening to another's claim of "the only right answer" prepares me for nothing.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On Jun 26, 2015, funsway wrote: Absolutely BRILLIANT post Funsway! God gave us MANY gifts and free will is one of THE most important. BTW, I am a HUGE fan of Thomas Merton. |
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Mike Ince Inner circle 2048 Posts |
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On Jun 26, 2015, funsway wrote: Let's use reason with the Thomas Merton claim that all religions are equally valid. Since truth cannot contradict truth, and world religions contradict one another, they cannot all be true. Merton's assertion, then, was nonsense. Nonsense is nonsense no matter the source. No matter how much Thomas Merton us liked or respected, it doesn't sound like he knew much about Christianity. "No man comes to the Father except by Me" is enough to exclude Christianity from the notion that all religions are true. They could possibly all be false, but not all true. Which version or translation of the Bible should be trusted? The many translations descending from the original autographs. We have better, older, more plentiful source material for translations now than ever. Jesus affirmed the Old Testament of his day (the Law, the Writings, and the Prophets) and the ancient Dead Sea Scrolls have shown the faithful transmission of the OT through the centuries from before Christ until today. If Jesus is the risen Son of God as He and the eyewitnesses to His resurrection claimed, then the Old Testament and the eyewitnesses' testimony of Christ can be trusted. How to recognize what's properly included in New Testament canon is a discussion I'm eager to have with someone ready to accept what's in accord with both Scripture and reason. Truth is systematic. Truth does not contradict itself. I'm not interested in debating the canon with anyone intent on remaining uncertain. It's a big topic and, respectfully, I'm tired of wasting time online with people committed to rejecting the New Testament no matter what (who won't do as much as a web search to find the answers of professional Christian apologists, and if they ARE interested in searching for that, they don't need my answers very much). Demanding a reasonable faith is fair. Assuming the Christian faith is unreasonable because other faiths are unreasonable, or because some practitioners of Christianity are anti-intellectual, is unfair. I hope you're not assuming that, funsway, but even if you think that way I know you're a deep thinker - I've read enough of your posts to know you're still open to re-examining your doubts. My faith is in the gospel, a message which has always seemed like "foolishness to those who are perishing". May that never be said of us, friends. I've studied World Religions and have never found another with so much historicity, nor have I heard of another resurrected Savior doing for mankind what we were unable to do for ourselves. Peace and salvation, hope and peace to you... all for free! God's gift is surprising and indescribable.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10020 Posts |
"Let's use reason with the Thomas Merton claim that all religions are equally valid"
That is not what he said. He said they are all correct. Big different. and neither "correct" or "equally valid" equal "true" It is your argument that is circular and "nonsense." Merton is considered by many to be greatest scholar of all time. That means man's interpretation of information, not necessarily the truth of it. All religions can be correct by being internally consistent -- and if followed provide a path for unity with the divine. Jesus also referred to old Testaments as the way things used to be done -- and said he was bringing a new testament to follow. He also said that he was bringing the testament to all people, and was setting an example of how to act. Thus, the passage quoted above of "by me" can be interpreted as "to follow my example" of giving up all of this world such as ego, pride and self-importance and surrendering yourself to God's will. I never suggested that Christianity is unreasonable, though I do think that many interpretations are beyond reason. Part of free will is to doubt, which is a form of question. I am always open to learn, and can rely on faith when reason fails. But to deny reason in the name of faith is folly. Not sure where I express "having doubts" though. And why would you assume I am not Christian? I will admit to not finding much to follow in any organized religion today. If Jesus arrives tomorrow he would not join any of them. I am glad you have fund a path that seems to work for you. So have I. I just chose to follow Christ's teaching of "pray alone in the closet," and "let your actions be your gospel." I also am interested in Scripture and reason. ALL scripture and consistent reasoning. Both seem in short supply. At least your first paragraph leaves reason in doubt.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Mike Ince Inner circle 2048 Posts |
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On Jun 27, 2015, funsway wrote: I know saying Merton's statement was nonsense is offensive, but does saying all religions are equally correct any less nonsensical than saying they are all valid? I have never heard the definition of correct as "internally consistent", and I wonder if you can point me to a dictionary that defines the word "correct" in that way? All I can find are definitions of correct as "free from error; not mistaken in opinion or judgment", etc. Does internal consistency signify correctness? If so, might paranoid schizophrenics worldwide be called correct for being consistent in their delusions? I'm sure you know plenty of atheists who seem to have systematic atheistic beliefs, some who are even consistent enough to also be nihilists (no God = no meaning or objective morality). They can't be right and theists also be right, can they? It's contrary to logic. Following Jesus' perfect example isn't enough, chiefly because it is impossible to do. What did Jesus teach but things that were even harder to follow than the Mosaic law? Now lust is to be avoided as much as adultery, and anger is a sin worthy of death, on par with murder. What hope is there in trying to follow Jesus without grace? In case the first exclusive claim of Christ I quoted form John 14:6 seems ambiguous, I propose this one: 'Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."' The urgency of the Great Commission comes from the truth that no one can have life apart from Christ's sacrificial atonement. If there are many ways to God, how can Christ be one of them? 1 Corinthians 10:19-21 teaches that the gods and goddesses of non-Judeo-Christians are actually demons. "What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons." Are religions that worship demons to be equated with faith in Christ? 2 Corinthian 6 urges Christians to stay away from close relationships with unbelievers. "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God..." Galatians 1:9 says unorthodox Christians are cursed - "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." What are you preaching? Is it the same gospel that Paul preached? I think that's worth examining for one's own safety. Peter, led by the Holy Spirit whom Christ had promised, said this after God healed a man through him: "...let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” That is an undeniable claim of exclusivity. After all, "if righteousness could be gained through observing the law, Christ died for nothing!" (BTW, is Islam also right? Mohammed wrote that Jesus was "neither killed nor crucified", yet the crucifixion is the crux of the gospel of Christ. Both cannot be right). I don't know if you're a Christian, funsway. Only God can see people's spiritual state with absolute clarity. I know Christian teaching, and I know if you say "there are many paths to God" in any way, you are preaching a heresy which is not to be found in the pages of Scripture. It is only to be found in the wishful thinking of people who deny what Scripture says repeatedly. Many are unwilling to submit solely to the Christ of Scripture or the Scripture of the one and only Christ. Whether the alternate path you've chosen ultimately works for you is yet to be seen, as our paths will be proven to be straight or crooked at God's final judgment. I don't know about you, but that seems to me an appropriate thing to fear. I'll leave you be, I don't intend to wrestle with the subject forever, but what is worth wrestling over if not the benefit of our eternal souls? I hope with my whole heart that you do belong to Christ and that the hope He gives of eternal life belongs to you as well, not because of what you do, but because of what He has done for you, his beloved. Peace.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
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funsway Eternal Order old things in new ways - new things in old ways 10020 Posts |
There you go again -- misquoting. Therefore all that follows in your presentation is invalid.
Merton never said that all religions are "equally" correct. Why do you paraphrase and then attack your own fabrication? You wallow in equivocation -- hardly a reason to follow any of your opinions. Also, he never said it was a true statement or any claim of legitimacy. He never said he believed it or support any such claim. He said that would be the thesis of inquiry -- that every exploration into religiosity would assume that premise rather than the traditional assault of one religion on the other. So, rather than dealing with the accuracy of what he said and the motivation, you try an ad hominem attack. Your quoting of scripture from only one source validates this approach -- it turns you into a salesman rather than a person seeking knowledge or understanding. A poor salesman at that since your reasoning is circular, your statements inaccurate and your personal logic riddled with heuristic fallacy. ......... This thread is about whether a Christian should be a performing magician. How about sticking to the subject. It is not about your personal interpretation.... of Scripture. It is not about mine either. It certainly isn't about whether a magician should be a Christian from your myopic perspective. You say, "Only God can see people's spiritual state with absolute clarity." -- yet you assume that role in deciding who a Christian and who is not. Shame. You claim to "know Christian teaching." I think your statements prove this is not so. Are you a magician? No proof of that either.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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MagicMason Veteran user 305 Posts |
I have found this verse of Scripture very helpful in my understanding of who Jesus is and how a person can find and meet God: "Jesus said I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Yeshua (Jesus) said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6
One has to know WHO Yeshua IS, to understand that. Yeah, I'm a "Christian", but I do not label myself. That label is too restrictive. Was Moses a "Christian"? Abraham? There ARE those who would prevent you from knowing the Truth. We have all been deceived. Case in point? What have we discovered on the Moon? On Mars? It'll never see the light of day. Other "agendas" prevail. Ratrher than sit here and curse the darkness, myself, I'd light a candle. But someone'd blow it out... Doug |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
There are no Illuminati--and we'll discredit anyone who says there are.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
When Jesus said, "I Am...", I wonder if we really know what that means? >Shudder...<
Doug |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Neil Diamond sang "I AM."
Hmmmm...
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts |
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On Jul 3, 2015, Dougini wrote: Christ used the self referential MANY times Doug. I don't understand the >Shudder< Doug. Christ IS God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity; Three Persons in One God. I seem to recall your have a relative who is an Eastern Orthodox nun. Certainly SHE knows what the "I Am" means. Hope you're doing well buddy! |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Doing OK, Vlad! Thank you! Yeah, I was referring to the time Moses asked God what His name was...
Doug |
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