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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Trick coin trickery » » My impressions/review of Roy Kueppers Coins (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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CrazyBadMagician
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Hey everybody, so I received a rather large order of coins from Roy Kueppers and I thought I'd share my honest opinion of the work he's provided with you guys.

On April 26th I order as follows

Walking Liberty expanded shell with 4 matching inserts, the shell being shimmed.
English Penny expanded shell with 4 matching inserts
Walking liberty folding coin (2 cuts for a bottle routine)
Walking liberty magnetic flipper (previously mentioned expanded liberty shell to fit this to make the OXF gaff)
Walking liberty/English Penny Scotch and Soda set with bang ring
C/S Liberty/English penny Magnetic
C/S Liberty/English penny NON magnetic

I received the products at the end of May, just a few days ago. 1 month is a good amount of time for this kind of order I think. Thanks for that Roy.

The good:
-English Penny expanded fits PERFECT with the inserts. Really well done.

-All Walking Liberty halves are soft and aged, all look the same and hardly make sound.

-The scotch and soda set couldn't be better! Amazing work.

-Folding coin is also perfect, great cuts, very small side grooves. Hardly noticeable.

-The Walking Liberty Flipper is great!

The bad:
-It was shipped in a very small bubble envelope. For having 850 USD in custom gimmicked coins, why risk having something heavy put on top during transport and possibly damaging/bending something? A box with padding would have been much better.

-Walking Liberty expanded shell is not a great fit. Almost like it's been expanded a little too much. Also, this shell seems to wobble on anything I put it on. I'm guessing it is because of the shim inside, but Roy should have told me a shim creates wobble. It's expensive stuff, a warning would have been nice.

-The dates on the coins are not the same, on any set. (not that big of a deal, but that's just another way for somebody to catch you using gaffs)

-The English Penny expanded shell is a great fit, but is not finished like the matching inserts. It's a bit darker and I've already been called out on that. That's a shame.

-The Walking Liberty expanded shell also does not have the same finish as it's matching inserts. It's not aged as much, and therefor looks different. I have also been called out on this while performing. Additionally, the side of the shell is very bright and shiny, while the matching inserts are considerably darker. Putting a real coin next to the gaff, you can totally see they are different. For the money, I would expect they would look the same. Too bad.

-The Flipper coin itself is great, but the Walking Liberty expanded shell that is shimmed just isn't a great fit. As previously mentioned, there is a considerable amount of wobble when putting the shell on. It's not bent, I checked. The point of having a magnetic flipper and a shimmed expanded shell for the OXF gaff is so you can nest everything together and toss it from hand to hand without it separating or "talking". Of course it doesn't separate, being magnetic, but the talking between the shell and flipper is so bad that I wouldn't dare toss this unit from hand to hand. It absolutely sounds like a shell and coin gaff. I watch the Metal 3 DVD and the guy on the DVD is using the exact same thing, just made by somebody else. Absolutely no talk and a perfect fit. I'm quite disappointed with this gaff. I don't want to be disrespectful to Roy, but the expanded Liberty shell's quality is on par maybe with Johnson. I expected way more.

-I ordered a C/S with a magnet. I paid for a magnet too. Just before Roy was finished with my gaffs he emailed me telling me he couldn't put a magnet because there wasn't enough room and that he shimmed it instead. I wanted a magnet so I could put my Liberty expanded shell over it and have a magnetic sun and moon set. It's ok that it's not magnetic, if he can't do it he can't do it, The magnet cost another 10 dollars which I pre-paid for. No refund was even offered. Why? I'm not sure. He did throw in some extra rubber bands though. I guess that's why?

-I ordered the C/S with the heads and tails configuration specifically so I could fit shells over them and make them look like real coins again, becoming two sun and moon sets. Both the C/S coins came thinner than an English Penny! So I put the English Penny expanded over the C/S, great fit. That's one good thing. That one I'm very happy with. I put the Walking Liberty expanded over the other one, NOT a great fit. The C/S is so thin that it sits UNDER the lip of the shell. There is absolutely no way I can have that set mouth up and people not see the gaff. I mean why is it so thin? The expanded shell is made to fit over a non gaffed real coin. Why was the C/S made to be thinner than an English Penny? I had a routine that requires two sun and moon sets, in the exact way I ordered them. Can't do that now, and I spent a lot of money on them! I'm sorry, that just seems like things weren't being tested at all when being made. There's no reason for that.


I know I listed more bad than good, but honestly there is more bad than good. I think the attention to detail here was lacking. I have a shell that talk like crazy, shells that don't match inserts, an unusable sun and moon, unusable OXF etc. Roy expressed to me that a lot of work went into these coins... and I'm sure time was spent... that's all I want to say about that.

The one really good thing about this though, is now I have some stuff I didn't have before, regardless of details and quality. Half of the stuff he made is great quality as mentioned in the GOOD section. But the most expensive, most important stuff of the entire set is bunk in my opinion.

I do not feel like I got 850 USD worth of quality here. I'm sorry, but if I decide to get more gaffs, I'm going to his competitor. I'm happy to have them, but I'm also disappointed enough to not be a return customer.

This is my experience. If you have any experience with his work of your own, I'd be really happy to hear it!

Thanks

-Dam
inigmntoya
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Quote:
The one really good thing about this though, is now I have some stuff I didn't have before, regardless of details and quality.


No, that's not a good thing. You didn't get what you ordered, the items you received can't be used in the ways intended.

Quote:
Just before Roy was finished with my gaffs he emailed me telling me he couldn't put a magnet because there wasn't enough room and that he shimmed it instead.

You said the C/S coins were thinner than the English pennies - maybe that's why there wasn't enough room? Sounds like he screwed up and instead of starting over tried to take a shortcut and see if it would pass?

Quote:
The English Penny expanded shell is a great fit, but is not finished like the matching inserts.

Then they're not MATCHING inserts.

Quote:
The Walking Liberty expanded shell also does not have the same finish as it's matching inserts.

See above. They're not MATCHING inserts if they don't MATCH.

Quote:
the expanded Liberty shell's quality is on par maybe with Johnson


Johnson's shells don't wobble. They fit well. The difference between a Johnson and a Lassen is "good fit" vs "near vacuum fit". A wobble is a defect.
When I hear "wobble" I think "doesn't sit flat on a coin, or another coin placed on it doesn't sit flush, such that one wobbles over the other. Or do you mean there's too much of a gap between the inserted coin and the rim of the shell that causes it to rattle inside?

With circulated Walking Liberties and an expanded shell, rattling happen. Older, more worn coins not only lose details, but the edges wear down leading to a smaller overall diameter. That's one reason why some prefer unexpanded sets -- everything is sized/machined to fit. That said, I've gone to a coin shop with a shell and in fairly short order gone through their "cull" coins and found matches (both fits and looks) for my shells. One shell was on the large side, the other while expanded was a tight fit on everything except very worn coins. So if "looseness"/rattling is the problem and not a wobble, I'd have to say again that your "matching" inserts don't MATCH. If it's truly a wobble, it's a bad shell. Either way, it's not something I would accept for custom coin work.

Have you contacted Roy with your concerns and given him a chance to make things right?
Tom G
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If you do a search on Roy, you'll see there's been a lot of disgruntled customers in the past.
CrazyBadMagician
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Hi inigmntoya,

You are right, I didn't get what I paid for.

With the Walking Liberty expanded shell, there is very little rattling. The shell is a decent fit. The problem is the wobble. Meaning I can hold the shell and the coin by one end pinched and the coin sticks out the other side of the shell. The shell sits on top, but teeter totters on top of anything Walking Liberty half I put it on. So this causes the shell and coin to talk. Given this was made to fit the flipper and be an OXF gimmick, it is essential that they don't talk. That's the entire point. Roy has failed to produce this.

As far as Johnson shells are concerned, I have a few of them. The fit is not that great. They only cover about 60% of the coins edge as well. To me there's a difference between a 35 dollar expanded shell and a 120 dollar expanded shell. Yes there's a teeter tottering going on with mine, but the shell covers 90% of the coin at least and there is no rattle. Just doesn't sit flat that's all. Which is a big problem.

I've emailed Roy. I want to send him back the entire set and get a refund, but I doubt he'll do that. I even want to send everything that's good back because I need everything to match, aging, softness etc. I'd rather just buy from somewhere else. I'm disappointed.
inigmntoya
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One thing with WL coins is that Lady Liberty tends to stand out higher than the rest of the coin (relatively speaking) creating a ridge down the middle which may be what's causing the wobble vs something with the shell. Put your coins face down on a flat surface and make sure they don't wobble on their own.
CrazyBadMagician
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Nope, they don't wobble on their own. It's the shell. Something to do with the shell. I would just expect that Roy would check these kinds of things before shipping out products. It would literally take seconds. He should have higher standards.
videoman
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Were you very clear with Roy that you were trying to create an OxF coin, and were you certain that he knew what an OxF should be capable of?
CrazyBadMagician
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Yes, I was clear. He sells OXF on his site, advertises them. I'm sure a man that does this line of work, quotes the DVD where the OXF comes from, quotes the gimmick, and also sells the gimmick, knows it's purpose. It's more than just the OXF though, as I previously mentioned. That's just one of the things.
bowers
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A OXF is a Schoolcraft gimmick.
Roy doesn't have these listed on his site.
Do you mean Roy or Jamie?
CrazyBadMagician
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If you go to Roy's site, under his coin section you will find the "metal 3" section. Here's a link http://www.roykueppers.com/metal3.html

You can see the second item on that page - OXF Gimmick.
bowers
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Okay I see it now.
Todd
Bill Hegbli
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I agree Johnson Products Coins are the best, and they come with a lifetime guarantee. If you wore you set out an they wobble, none of mine do, just send them in and they replace, no questions asked. They are a great company that does quality work. Best in the Business.

Why anyone would not test the water 1st is puzzling. I would have ordered one set, and looked them over to see what he considers matching. I would have never paid $800 and hope all will be as desired. Of course that is just me.

Well, if anything you learned a good lesson from this adventure. Don't know why you decided to come on the Café and complain, looks like everyone knows he produces junk. Don't let the tears drop in your beer.
CrazyBadMagician
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We will have to agree to disagree on the Johnson products. I talked with many other people about where I should buy my gaffs from. Roy's name got mentioned a lot. Roy has sent me an email saying I can send what I don't want back, he will make it right with me, or I can have a refund. So that's good.

I wrote such a detailed review of the gaffs here so people will know what kind of work goes on with Roy. Who's complaining? You're making it sound like I'm coming here wanting other people to do something about it. I wrote a negative review for other people's knowledge. If only good things were allowed to be said about products, nothing would ever get a bad review. No need for a snide remark about tears either Bill. Your condescending attitude towards useful knowledge is irritating. I'm not crying about this, nor complaining. I wrote a review. Why don't you try being a little bit of a nicer person, and think a little bit more before you start with the condescending remarks please.

ps - No, not everybody knows he produces "junk". Do a search and you will find that a TON of people are actually really impressed with his work.
snowpuppy
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I'm glad everything worked out with you and Roy as I have had no problems with him or his work in the past.I own coins from Sasco,Sterling,Mogar.Johnson,Kueppers,Tango,Mason and Lassen with Kueppers being my main supplier.
Dougini
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Quote:
On Jun 7, 2015, CrazyBadMagician wrote:
No need for a snide remark about tears either Bill. Your condescending attitude towards useful knowledge is irritating. I'm not crying about this, nor complaining. I wrote a review. Why don't you try being a little bit of a nicer person, and think a little bit more before you start with the condescending remarks please.

ps - No, not everybody knows he produces "junk". Do a search and you will find that a TON of people are actually really impressed with his work.


+1 Smile

Doug
bowers
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I can't say anything bad about Roys work.
I have order a bunch of galf coins from
him in the past and have never been disappointed
with anything he has made for me.

I hate yours didn't turn out right.
But I do believe he will make it right for you.
Todd
evikshin
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What you said about the expanded shell corresponds to my experience. I ordered a barber shell set from him once, and the shell was distorted, and too big. The coins fit really lose. In fact, I could not find one coin at the coin store that would fit the shell properly. My conclusion is that he over-expanded the shell. I called him about it, and he told me to buy his DVD on how to fix expanded shells. Really?

I think he's a hack, but hey, at least he's more affordable. It would be a crime if he charged the same or more than Todd Lassen.
Speaking of which, go with Todd Lassen. Develop a relationship with him. His work is top notch, and he understands the art and science of coin gaffing at a much deeper level than the other craftsmen, I think. I also heard Xavier Belmont from France does beautiful work, and does not churn out garbage.

One other thing to consider is this: before ordering your gaffs, select the coins yourself, measure out their diameter, and make sure they all match. Do this first, then send them to the craftsman to make your gaffs. The reason is due to this simple truth: the gaffs are only as good as the coins that are being used to make them. This is all the more true for worn coins that sometimes vary wildly in wear, thickness, and diameter. With expanded shells, select coins that have a nice thick edge and that are not too thin or worn. and if appearance is important, take your time and pick out a set that matches exactly. Also, measure the diameter using a caliper. Of course, the craftsman is more than capable of picking out coins and measuring in the way described. However, he may not have time to do as thorough a job in picking the coins. You are then limited to whatever coins he happens to have laying around. And if he is really busy, good luck getting him to go to the coin store to find "ideal" coins.
videoman
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So true, if having the coins match is important to you no one is going to care as much or put in the amount of time that you would.
Doesn't matter how talented a craftsman they may be, in the long run they aren't the one who is going to live with them, you are.
They are going to do the best they can from what they have on hand (and in some cases they may just use the first one they happen to grab.)

But I do think that some such as Todd Lassen take enough pride in their work that they just can't bring themselves to ship out sub-par work.
So you'll get the best from what they have available. Although Todd does do an excellent job of finding the best matches in most cases, and that is usually as good as you really need, so I honestly haven't found it necessary to supply him with the coins.
BCS
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I recently purchased 2 of Roy's plated coins... One copper and one gold. I am pretty happy with them. I need to age the copper coin and was worried that the plating might wear off, I had no problem.

Thanks,
Bruce
Inviso
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I have to agree with Bill, going all in with an $850 order is pretty brave but no, he doesn't produce junk. I've dealt with Roy in the past as well and even spoken to him directly on some of the concerns posted in other threads. He has made an effort to improve his customer service but I too have found some of the attention to detail a bit hit or miss. Most items have been excellent but one or two could have been better. The one big improvement, as noted by the OP, has been his effort to make it right. I can't say this happens in every case but it has been my experience.
A lot of people have noted their experiences, good and bad, and added some consideration one should make when ordering custom coins anywhere. Try a small order to see if you are happy with the quality and service. If not, you are free to shop elsewhere.
Hopefully CrazyBadMagi gets a satisfactory resolution.

Randy
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