For years I've charged $100 per day for meals and incidentals on any engagement that requires travel. I'm wondering if I'm charging too little? For those who travel for engagements, what is your per diem? If you don't mind sharing this information, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

Lou Serrano

I've never used per diems, I guess for several reasons. I onc eread an IRS publication that stated that per diems and entertainment/food expense write-offs are two of the top "red flags" for identifying one for an IRS audit. Their reasoning is because you would have to eat anhow regardless of whether you were engaged by a client and therefore should not be an expensable consideration.

Furthermore, it is one area that many use to inflate their expenses and writeoffs which is why in many cases, especially for entertainers, salesmen (and women), over the road truckers and other road workers this is often an area that they look at for red flags or signs of inflated or unapproved/unacceptable expenses.

Also I have never been a fan of including travel, meals, ground transportation and rental cars, and so on. I quote one price and it includes everything I need. I've found this is what most clients want, it makes it easier on many levels (only one check or charge to requisition, only one payment to keep track of, one invoice to issue, one receivable to track, I have complete control, etc.) for both me and the client.

I'm with Mindpro. My rates are all inclusive whether I give them or my agents do. It covers travel, rental cars, expenses, etc. Less for the client to worry about.

I do not build in cost for food. As stated, I'd have to eat anyway. I do, however, use the Standard Meal Allowance as determined by the government. Search that term on Google, Lou, and you'll find what I'm talking about. It's nowhere near as high as you might think. It pretty much covers the cost of having to eat out, instead of being able to cook if you were home, and also accounts for standard of living in major cities.

Every "extra" line is an objection waiting top happen.

I have never used this daily meal allowance or what not.

It is so easy to just include it in one price.

I never justify my rates for any reason. They are what they are. I always thought it weakened a position by trying to justify them. To me the per diem is an extension of that attitude. Charge what your value is and be done.

Many people have been stung by the add on. For this reason I simply avoid looking as if I am doing it.

That is one opinion. Nothing more. Not saying I am right. Just saying it is how I do it.

The standard meal allowance is a government sanctioned tax write off, not something charged to the client. The point is that you don't charge the client for meals. You pay for food yourself, and then simply take the government allowable write off come tax time.

Yea I know the difference.

Lou! I've been in the business almost all my life (I'm 83) and I totally agree with the fellows above.

I figured as much, which has me confused: If you're not charging anything extra to the client or giving them a headache, why wouldn't you choose to take an allowable tax write off?

I appreciate the input, unfortunately this doesn't answer my question.

Some gigs I offer an all inclusive price. As has been stated above, it makes the entire booking process much simpler. Sometimes I've billed the client for all my expenses. Other times I've charged a per diem. I've never had anyone question the per diem. I just make it a requirement of fulfilling the contract, and it's always been approved.

I'm familiar with the per diem amounts listed by the government, but I've never followed that amount. I don't list the per diem as an expense on my taxes. It's listed as income.

I'll explain why I was asking my initial question. I just booked a gig through Gigmasters. Knowing that my quote would be compared to others, I wanted to give the price for the performance. Not the all-inclusive price. It was an attempt to get the conversation started, so I could get the client on the phone and explain the value of what I do. Once they were interested, I explained that my price was in addition to travel expenses. The company is also taking care of the flight and hotel. The company had been talking to three other local entertainers and one other out of town entertainer. My strategy obviously worked, since I'm the one they booked.

My question isn't whether or not it's a good idea to charge a per diem, because I think it depends on the circumstances. My question is in reference to how much of a per diem do you charge the client? Obviously this wouldn't apply to anyone who doesn't charge a per diem.

If anyone else has any other input on this subject, I'd love to hear it.

Thank you,

Lou Serrano

We were not talking about taxes.

Incidentally I DO charge the client for those things, I just don't list it on a sheet for them to question.

Something even more important lately that per diem is what do you do with travel days? If you have a show across the country or often in my case across the world, it has travel time. Travel time of late has become a nightmare with connections and lack of direct flights quite often. It takes the better part of a day to get almost anywhere. That is 2 travel days that you have removed from your schedule just to get the gig done.

This is also something I pass along to the client. At times it might not matter but doing several shows in a week it can take you out of the game. You can take 3 days to do one show, and end up turning down three other gigs. It all has to be considered.

Lou I am sorry if it is off topic. I am not trying to derail this. It just rolls in within the idea of per diem.

Danny,

Tavel days are also something I'm struggling with at the moment. In the past I never charged for the two days of travel, but as my schedule gets more and more complex, I feel a need to start figuring that into my fee. Do you also include the travel days in the all-inclusive fee, or do you explain to the client that they are also paying for the travel days? As more and more of my gigs come through internet searches, I realize that many clients aren't looking for me in particular. They are looking for entertainment to fill their needs, so in many cases I'm not the only entertainer they are talking to.

Lou

I think we were just talking about two different facets of the same thing. I don't list per diem rates for anything, flight costs, hotels, rental car, etc. I provide one rate and only break it down if asked, which has been maybe once ever.

My remark about the "standard meal allowance" is that it lets you know what the government considers an appropriate amount for per diem meal expenses, so you can use it as a gauge when you build it into the total cost to the client. That way you avoid the IRS red flags that Mindpro discussed (which is why I was talking about taxes).

Lou that is ABSOLUTELY right! HOW they find you is going to dictate HOW you need to "justify" your fee, or what not. Yes yes yes. That was why I said that mine was only ONE way and not necessarily the right way.

Good now that disclaimers are out of the way LOL.

The vast majority of my work (Heck if not all.) is long term gigs. So I generally don't do the one night gigs. When I do them, I sort of have a strategy of warning people off because of how much it costs to bring me in. (I work in places that are extremely expensive to begin with, so the theory transfers.)

So travel days. I have a very tight performance schedule. I lose money when I am traveling most times. As I said before the places I have to travel are often international. So it is a pain in the hind parts.

Again because of where people see me, they assume travel is an issue. Their event is in Detroit, I am in Punta Cana. It is obvious. These are people used to paying for these things anyhow. When they are looking for an entertainer, and not necessarily you, it changes things dramatically. When bids are involved it again moves the goal posts. No doubt. One way or another you need to be compensated for the entirety of what "doing the show" for them entails.

Where and when you hit them with those costs is a matter of style I suppose. As I said I almost encourage them against using me BECAUSE of the cost involved. I hate negotiation and all involved with it. So I get rid of any "price shopping" right up front. BUT the vast majority of people who hire me have seen me. So context is everything.

If you hit them with a bid, a high bid to include all and they are shopping odds are pretty good that they will not even consider you. Certainly it causes a mild whiplash effect if they do! So I can understand your dilemma.

I think if it was me, (And I know it isn't but thinking it through.) I would be worried about getting them on the horn so you can even talk with them period. SO a high price all inclusive might not be the best way to do so. BUT perhaps a small acknowledgement that there are other costs involved? Just so it is not a shock, and so it doesn't come off as you trying to stick them for more.

I am sorry this is not helpful. It is intended to be!

Danny,

I agree with your assessment 100%. Thanks for your response.

I try to explain this following concept to anyone I coach. When people are seeking out Lou Serrano, they've already bought into my brand, and price becomes much less of a factor. When people find me through an internet search, I'm usually being compared to other entertainers, and people are viewing me as a commodity. It's what I do during the sales process, performance, and follow-up that can then transform the way someone thinks about me. The goal is to stop viewing me as a commodity, and have them buy into my brand.

Back to my original question. Does anyone on here ask for a per diem, and if so, how much of a per diem do you normally ask for?

Thanks again,

Lou Serrano

Absolutely Lou.

Sorry to derail.

Hey Lou,

I NEVER go into the per diem thing because I believe it confuses people, much like how some kid show magicians offer 3-4 different party packages. To me, it’s TMI - too much information.

I firmly believe most prospects just want to hear “one figure” that they can present to their group and make a decision.

Having said that, I think you can still find out a few things that might affect your price through your initial talk with the prospect. If I’m talking to someone about a festival that’s about a 5 hour drive from my house, the first thing I ask is, “By any chance, do you provide hotel accommodations?” If YES, that’s one less thing I have to add into my total fee.

Other than that, I can roughly estimate the travel and food costs and then just add that total to the amount of money I want to make in order to accept a particular booking.

Anyway, that’s how I do it.

Gerry

I usually still charge per day for food and misc. As far as how much - lets say the # you mentioned or a little more makes sense to me.

This was used 3 times so far this month for out of town gigs (one that was just in Miami this past weekend) and frankly I like it.

It really depends on the company. For this past weekend's gig the company was putting up over 60 guests in a nice hotel and they simply included me as if I was one of their guests. It worked out well. They also took care of all the transport to and fron the airport as well as transport to the performing venue.

For a smaller company I might go the route of the all inclusive price.

I have always quoted an all-inclusive price, with one exception where the client wanted to split out expensive from my fees.

If it is a local gig I charge one price, out of town I change another. One number, no per diem. I do this even on GigMasters and GigSalad. Probably miss up on gigs that way, but I don't want to quote a price and then, from the client's perspective, increase it by including travel costs (meals, flights, hotel).

Hudson

I know my original intention was lost, so let me try again. Lou, I believe my first post directly addresses your question, I just wasn't clear. Go to this site: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877

You will find the government per diem rates for overnight business travel. That should give you an idea of how to build in food and hotel costs as a per diem rate. For example, the standard daily meal allowance is $46, and standard hotel rate is $83 (excluding taxes). It is higher in major cities, and varies accordingly. Hotel rates may vary by month, also.

In other words if you're looking to charge a client a per diem to include meals, hotel, and incidentals, you might do the following: If it is a non-major city, take $46 (meals) + $83 (hotel) + $20 (incidentals, this is up to you) = $149/day. Seems a reasonable amount. If you're just charging for food and incidentals, perhaps $70/day is more appropriate. Again, this example is for a non-major city.

Hope this helps. If it doesn't, I apologize!

I’ve had a lot of experience with taxes and Brian is right. You can charge any amount you want, but you can’t claim on your taxes more than the amount allowed.
Whatever you charge will be counted as income. The deduction will be the actual cost up to the allowed amount.

I think the main thing is to charge a fair amount. If you can get by on $100 per day then charge that. Some areas may be more.

I agree that one price makes it much easier. But then when I think about how many things are priced today, maybe it’s not as confusing as we think. We all have
gotten use to paying taxes, shipping costs, handling fees, deposits, registration fees, application fees, import fees, billing fees, late fees, privilege fees,
federal charges, local taxes, tips, etc, etc, etc.

Truth is, I never what something costs anymore.

My point is it won’t be a complete shock to most to have something added on.


Tom