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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Who does Miser's Dream? (26 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Ferran Rizo
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Perform missers dream in a hat, cup, bucket or what ever without sound it's not the same that made it with sound of the falling coins. Specially on stage, if it does not sound it is not so mistifying as do in it with sound. So, the sound is a important part of the routine. Of corse the routine should be good enough to fool and entertaining spectators. Different procedures, handling and methods but without sound the routine is not the same.
Michael Rubinstein
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Ferran, no one said the routine should be done without sound. In my close up routine the co8ns clink when they are dropped into the hand. That's enough for me.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
Ray Haining
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As has been pointed out many times before in many venues, how boring life would be if we all agreed!

I just feel that certain classics of magic have their own "gestalt," tricks like the linking rings, Miser's Dream, egg bag are more than the sum of their parts. These tricks are essentially the same trick over and over again--rings are linked and unlinked, coins are produced one after the other, an egg disappears and re-appears--and you either "get it" or you don't; you are either able to put it all together or not.

For instance, I've never done the egg bag. While I've worked with it and can do all the moves, something is missing. I'm just not able to grasp the trick as a whole.

Michael, I feel your version of Miser's Dream is not really the Miser's Dream any more than, say, Vernon's "Free and Unlimited Coinage of Silver" is the Miser's Dream. It is merely the production, one after another, of so many coins. It is missing that indefinable "something" that makes the Miser's Dream the Miser's Dream.

Since we are bragging a bit here, I got to know Al Flosso from going to his magic store in New York City in the late 1960s, early 1970s. At the time, I knew nothing about him. I could relate a couple of stories, but not here on an open forum.

Yes, at age 65, I'm a youngster to Dick Oslund, whose performance of the Miser's Dream I would love to see.
Ferran Rizo
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Quote:
On Jul 22, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Ferran, no one said the routine should be done without sound. In my close up routine the co8ns clink when they are dropped into the hand. That's enough for me.



Michael, I am not complying just giving my point of view about the importance of the sound in stage. I like that you made clink the coin when you drop in the hand.
Dick Oslund
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Yes. To obtain the auditory illusion, the coin(s) must be heard when it falls into the pail, (hat, or whatever).

It's not only the audio illusion, however. There is, IMHO, a certain psychological effect, also. Mr. Kam, a month or so ago, suggested to a "newbie" that, he hold the bucket "sideways", so that the coins could fall and strike the sides of he pail, etc. I could not possibly do that in my routine! Often the coin is "milked" out of a kid's ear or elbow, and allowed to fall into the pail. Gravity doesn't work "laterally". At least nowhere in the U.S. where I've worked, and I've worked coast to coast and border to border.

I enjoyed Michael's presentation, (here comes the BUT!:::but, I must agree with Ray Haining's point that, it's not "really" a Misers Dream in the classical sense.

I wrote that lengthy post above to express to others in the thread, my experience with the Misers Dream. I forgot to mention that, over the years, I was privileged to meet and get to know, Faucett Ross. Ross KNEW T. Nelson Downs. Downs had told Ross that, "The "entertainment" is NOT producing coins from the air. The "entertainment" is in the production of coins from children's ears, ETC."

About 1971, I was touring Iowa, Montour Iowa was on my itinerary. (Montour was Downs' home town.) It's a village! I found the "city hall", and asked the clerk if there was anyone named Downs living in the village. She consulted her files, and said, "Yes!" She gave me the address. I knocked on the door, and T. NELSON DOWNS answered my knock!!!
Well, it wasn't Tommy Downs. It was his nephew! The resemblance was striking. He invited me in for coffee, and we had a DELIGHTFUL afternoon.

I shared my "history" above. I was not bragging. I was telling "my" story, and "my" experience with 'the pail'. At 18, I was trying hard to be "swayve & deboner". I wasn't. That agent "splained" things very simply. $how bu$ine$$!!! He pointed out very briefly, and clearly, that MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING. It's the PERFORMER, and his PRESENTATION that makes it entertaining! "If you can make 'em laugh, I'll book you."

I saw Buckingham at the 1950 IBM Convention. He worked in the classic, dignified,style. (upstage center, against the backdrop) He must have produced a dozen coins from the
backpalm. The magicians applauded wildly. The lay audience: MEH!

My first mentor, Stuart Ross, did the "straight" Tarbell routine,--and sold it well. I followed Stuart! Then, from an old carnie I learned the Downs palm! If that agent hadn't said, "Make 'em laugh!", I might still be doing that "sophisticated" MD, but, I would not likely have made a living with magic!

My presentation certainly won't win any trophies at magic conventions, but it entertains my audiences!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
Michael Rubinstein
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I don't think I will be able to get all of you to agree with me, but hey, I am gonna try. Let's use Matrix as an analogy. Every magician alive does a version of Matrix. Al Schneider, who took a coin assembly to the next level by developing Matrix, will argue that the countless variations are not Matrix, but the community tends to be comfortable with their own definition of what constitutes Matrix, and are comfortable enough to call their own variations by the same name. Now let's look at Miser's Dream. I am going to create a few scenarios, let me know what you think about each one.
1. Two Hobos are sitting on a Park bench. Soft sad music plays in the backround. One picks up a small garbage pail and empties it looking for food, but finds none. He reaches into the air, and finds a coin, which he drops into the pail. The other Hobo looks into the pail, amazed. Hobo one pulls a coin out of the elbow of Hobo 2, then one from behind his knee, dropping them into the pail each time. Hobo one then plucks another coin out of the air, takes one out of the nose of Hobo two, plucks a couple more coins out of the air, dropping them into the pail each time. He finds another one under the arm of Hobo 2, a few more from the air, and the last one from Hobo 2's mouth. They jingle the pail, then walk off stage to get something to eat with all the money they made. Total production, 11 coins. I think based on what everyone said here, you all would agree that this is a very nice presentation of the classic Miser's Dream (And all rights reserved!).
2. One Hobo is on the bench. He empties the pail as before, and uses the same moves but instead of finding the coins on Hobo 2, he finds the coins on his own body, dropping them into the pail each time. Same trick, one person. Still Miser's Dream?
3. Two Hobos on the bench. Instead of using a pail, Hobo one takes off his shoe and uses it to drop in the coins. Otherwise same as version one, with coins plucked out of the air and off of Hobo two. Still Miser's Dream?
4. One Hobo on the bench. Instead of a pail, he uses his shoe. Same moves as in version one, but he is using his shoe instead of a pail, and producing the coins from the air and his own body. Still Miser's Dream?

Up till now we are showcasing the same moves. Only difference is that there are one or two people, and a pail or a shoe.

5. Two Hobos on the bench. Same moves as first version, but putting the coins into his hand instead of a pail. Still Miser's Dream?
6. One Hobo on a bench. Same moves as with version one, but no pail or shoe, just his hand. Still Miser's Dream?
7. One Hobo on a bench. Same moves as version one, but now he doesn't look like a Hobo. he looks like Michael Rubinstein, only not as good looking as the real deal, and sings a rap song while using the same moves as in version one, but the coins go into his hand. Still Miser's Dream?

So we have seven scenarios, where the exact same moves are used, and 11 coins are produced each time. The difference is that one or two people are used, and the receptacle is either a pail, a shoe, or a hand. Same moves. I submit that each version is a variation of the first, and is still the Miser's Dream, just as every variation of a four coin assembly using cards is a variation of Matrix (and I know Al Schneider disagrees with this, but I am using it to make a point).
OK, Ray, Dick, Funsway, Smile, Ferran, and anyone else, Let's see what you've got Smile
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
SmileAndNod
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I think any routine where the magician produces coins as "money" instead of as props constitutes a Miser's Dream. I don't even think it needs to be more than one. If in the middle of an act the magician stops, looks in front of him, grabs a coin and puts it in the pocket and makes a joke about how he needed bus fare for later I would consider it a "Miser's Dream"

I also think it's silly to argue about the semantics of what defines a "Miser's Dream Routine". One of my favorite stories Richard Feynman would tell is how his father taught him that you can know the name of a bird in a hundred different languages, and not know anything about the bird. You can argue that one style is more effect for this and that, but to draw an arbitrary line and say this is a Miser's Dream routine but that isn't just seems pointless to me.
funsway
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Some interesting thoughts focusing on "message" rather than objects. Yet, some ability to classify magic effects would seem useful.
Any magician leafing though a new magic book and finding a heading "Misers Dream" would have some expectation of the effects described therein.

Certainly, any performer can take one of those effects and put their own spin on it, but what should fall under that heading in a book on magic?

One factor not explored here is the "dream" aspect. At the end there are no coins in the container -- it was just a dream. At least in the classic version.

But most performers now allow for other endings including a verification of count and surprise final load. Some prefer to display the coins produced before the ending, possibly transferring them to another location.

While the idea of "sound" to confirm the drop in the bucket seems common, how much of that importance is determined by the planned ending?

If you are going to end with nothing a lot of noise along the way can add to the surprise. Less so if you produce 11 coins and end up with 11 coins on the table.
.......

Michael's scenarios had be remember watching street people pick up cigarette butts in a park for later stripping and assembly into a full cigarette.

Could be a good effect. 1-15 butts found in unlikely places and dropped into a paper cup. Later they all vanish or become a cigar. Might be entertaining and a dream sequence, but would it be Misers Dream?

Cigarettes are used as money, so "SmileandNod" might agree. Would it be be more of a "dream" is the character was a hippie type foraging the ground after a rock concert?

No -- just kidding. But would a spectator find it lass magical because you didn't use metal coins?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Ferran Rizo
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Interesting point Michael. Misser dream is a production of coins, not cigars not cards, but coins. I think that it does not matter where you conceal produced coins. You can keep on hand, in a cap, hat, shoe... But if I produce one coin, it is a missers dream? I think it is not it is a single coin production. But if I produce two coins. Is missers dream? I think it is a two coin production instead of misser dream. And three? Or four? How many coins we need in order to be a missers dream?
Michael Rubinstein
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You just need to produce enough coins to establish the effect in the minds of your audience. The routine you do will dictate that amount.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
cheesewrestler
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Quote:
On Jul 23, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
I don't think I will be able to get all of you to agree with me, but hey, I am gonna try.


Why?
Michael Rubinstein
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Why am I gonna try, or why doesn't everyone agree with me. Don't know. What do you think?
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
fonda57
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Getting a bucket is on your bucket list: Love that.

i had some comments a long time ago in this thread in which I liked your routine, and I still do, Mr. Rubinstein
I j
Michael Rubinstein
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Thank you Fonda! Still waiting for someone to disprove my statement.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
funsway
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Quote:
On Jul 23, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
You just need to produce enough coins to establish the effect in the minds of your audience. The routine you do will dictate that amount.



OK. I'll bite. You have no way to know when the idea is established in their mind. You can rely on experience. intuition, and a read of signals form the given audience and may still not be correct.

But, I see no way you can "design a routine" with this knowledge before hand. Your assumption cannot "dictate" anything.

I was told about 50 years ago when I was practicing a MD routine, "Prepare to produce 20 coins. Then cut it short when the amusement wears off and change to the surpise ending."

So, I agree with your first sentence and disagree to the second. Is that half objection or half concurrence? (I have only rarely produced all 20)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
fonda57
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I think what he means, in part, is the that the audience is not familiar with Miser's Dream effects, and is therefore expecting a bucket or a hat or anything. So they see the routine for what it is.
I j
Michael Rubinstein
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Funsway, I was referring to my statement that the seven scenarios I listed were in fact all variations of the Miser's Dream routine, but what you say is technically true. There is no was for a performer to absolutely know if he has established the effect in the minds of the audience, unless he takes a poll or talks to each person who witnessed the routine. HOWEVER, I submit to you again that in fact, with experience in developing, performing and refining your routines, you can get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. Most performers live with their routines and they get refined through repeat performance. That is good enough for me, and I would hazard to say the same for all performers.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book.
Bairefoot
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Here's my Miser's Dream for close-up. I produce 4 coin 4 different ways. I say I could do this all day but I have get to the others guest. I then do a coins across routine. I then product a glass of wine to finish the routine. If I don't have a glass of wine I put the coins back in the air. Sometimes I produce the 4 coins and say here let do this a little faster and produce a dollar bill then change it into a $100. Your Miser's Dream needs to be adaptable to real world situations. But this is just my thought.

Bairefoot
funsway
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Good enough for me too, Michael. I just like to adapt to the audience rather than "have the routine dictate."

Bairefoot - I would agree that having a MS approach segue into another effect is valid and good routining. The 'dream component" can be satisfied
by the observer later telling the story, "this guy grabbed coins from nowhere and then showed us how magical they were."

The number of coins produced becomes minor compared with the memory of magic.

As a side-bar, the noisy production of coins can be an effective method of focusing attention away fro other distractions and establishing yourself as a magician --
as a lead-in to your signature effect. The number seen to be produced might vary from spectator to spectator but the idea of "endless supply" satisfied.

Is it really MD when uses a part of a larger, flowing routine? I don't know -- but will do it anyway.

Perhaps this validates Michael's point above in that your entire performance might dictate the actual number produced. What number will the audience remember? That is an illusion anyway.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



eBooks at Lybrary.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
Bairefoot
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I am sorry what does MS approach mean. Right now I am working on producing coins on stage with a wine glass. Then I want to go to my coin ladder (never used it once, had for 2 years now).

Bairefoot
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