Joe Z... you bring out a very real and sound point that I try to press with everyone I work with in doing Readings. Though I'm a fan of KK and his material, I am also of the mind set of keeping yourself out of the rut e.g. the co-dependent act of using the same old stuff all the time to fall back on.

This is why I tell magicians (as in a couple of threads here) TAKE ALL THAT COLD READING CRAP FROM THE MAGIC SHOPS AND TOSS IT... for your first two years learn at least two different divination system like Tarot and say Numerology, and work them exactly as you would from the book as a shut eye. Leave all the psycho-mumbo jumbo out of it until you KNOW at least these two systems and have done no less than five readings a day five days a week over that two year period...

This kind of action will give you perspective and foundation NO BOOK OR TAPE can deliver. After you get that foundation under yourself, then you use material like Completely Cold, Wonder Words, Herb Dewey, Nelson, Larson (and I guess I'll mention Ian Rowland... )using said sources as ways to enhance and expand upon your learnt abilities.

Yes, I'm simplifying it all, but I think you can see my point.

Like you Joe, I've been doing Readings for a very long time in just about every kind of venue you can think of... I can only say, I agree with you completely!

All of the previous posts on this topic have been valuable. A point which should be emphasized is this: without life experience, study, and confidence (conviction?), a cold-reading system will reek of the unsophisticated trickery mentioned above. But the same holds true for all magic; be convincing or prepare to be challenged by thinking audiences. Don't be another "Uncle Geek" in Magic (respects to Eugene Burger for the term). There are no short-cuts to developing authority in your performances or readings, beyond study, hard work, learning from mistakes, and more work.

Okay, I'm off my "psychic soapbox." I have volumes of material on NLP, hypnosis, and the classics on readings. None of these techniques should be considered panaceas. As performers, we have to become more perceptive, more intuitive, and we need to learn to recognize and understand the non-verbal communication that inundates us. The bulk of interpersonal communication, as opposed to e-mail postings, is non-verbal. This is why the experience of the friends who have posted on this topic is so valuable: years of sales management training, years of practical day in, day out performances and readings.

Thanks to everyone who is joining in this discussion. I personally find it very interesting, and it does have practical applications in all areas of Magic and Life.

I just want to point out that, while a certain amount of criticism has been given by previous posters about Kenton's various reading techniques, the Wonder Words tape set that I possess has nothing particularly to do with cold reading. It does contain some extremely good tricks, all of which operate on linguistic subtlety. Furthermore, I have found the linguistic principles he outlines to be extremely valuable. I think Wonder Words is exceptional, and I can't imagine that somebody wouldn't want to at least give it a listen.

--Christopher Carter

I agree with Ford.

Also I think that NLP doesn't offer nearly as much to mentalism as it is claimed. Now that I think about it, my comment is not restricted to mentalism. In terms of presentational concepts it has been said before and better.

Some of the applied NLP material does work but I think not for the exact NLP-reasons mentioned. Focus needs to be more on content.

There is a lot a hot air around.

Can I be more cryptic?

Probably.

-Alain Bellon

quote:
I agree with Ford.

Also I think that NLP doesn't offer nearly as much to mentalism as it is claimed. Now that I think about it, my comment is not restricted to mentalism. In terms of presentational concepts it has been said before and better.

Some of the applied NLP material does work but I think not for the exact NLP-reasons mentioned. Focus needs to be more on content.

HI,
I am interested to see where The claims about Nlp 's use in mentalism are?
I am reasonalbly well read, But I have never really seen these claims.
only people saying that it does not meet them. I would really like to look them up to see if in my opinion it delivers it's claims. Please could you post the references here so that I and others can look them up.
I would be grateful.

I also should say Wonder words is a lot more than Just NLP in fact it is a small part of the series.
phillip

Have you ever seen a great comedian perform and have the audience laughing till they couldn’t stop? Even although afterwards you examined the actual material (content) and it was nonsense and wondered why you found it so funny? Perhaps you even repeated it to some friends who didn’t even smile. Some mentalists have made an absolute fortune and cult following from simple stunts such as bending a spoon? On the other hand you may have seen some great material that had no effect because the performer wasn’t any good.

So what makes one performance better than another? Have you ever wondered why some people have a strong impact on the world? In most cases its not the content but the process. In other words its how something is done not what is actually done. That basically is what NLP is about the study of excellence. An understanding of how words and subtle behaviour can sometimes make profound shifts in the emotional and psychological state of the “target”, can only help any kind of performance. I mean surely as a mentalist the “effect” (how they process what you’ve done) you have on your audience is more important than the actual trick or method (content). Now some great performers out their have never studied NLP but do this intuitively. For all these people who want to read some more about it…..you have to experience it in order to be able to judge for yourself. In other words a considerable amount of time and training. I suspect that Kenton Knepper’s material has such a divided opinion is because some have only read his work while others have gone out and spent some time and effort trying it out.

Well, Kenton is always worth a read, in my opinion, for the FUN of reading Kenton. And while I don't always agree with him, he always comes across as a very nice man.

I think Completely Cold is excellent, but, as most have said, only as a specific method within a reading system. It is beautifully crafted to make the sitter "feel" hit, but as a basis for an entire reading any longer than 5 minutes or so I think it would fall flat. Wonder Words is waiting to be listened to at home. Will comment when I know more.

As far as seeing Kenton perform, I have never seen him live, so I don't feel entirely confident in saying this, but I do feel I can usually spot what he's up to on tape. However, he never fails to entertain me. So as far as I'm concerned, his ideas may not be the best for someone who is trying to "get away with it" first and cause emotional reaction second.

The ideal would be to accomplish both always of course.

/bamba

I find some of the principles usefull, but for the most part feel overuse of the NLP can cause more damage than good. It attempts to manipulate rather than persuade. I've gotten the "yea, right" lack of faith response at some of this stuff, which loses the spectator and it's hard to get them back. I'm now using some of this as "what NOT to do" if I want to build trust and faith with the audience.

He even tries to use NLP on you while your listening to the tapes, which I find insulting.

In the end, I use a couple of the ideas which at the price makes this a bad purchase for me.

I believe it comes down to timing, and delivery. Your silent script and body language are also very important.

Most of the time, it's not what you say, but
the way you say it.
Cheers,
James

I have to agree about one thing here.
In the third tape of the series, he says
the BIG SECRET of all the tapes is that they are in code, and that ALL the mistakes and coughs and stutters are intentional, I think
that really blew a lot of credibility.

Overall, the whole series is cheap at twice the price. I do find that those little fibs
and incongruencies very irritating.
Cheers,
James

Very difficult to have a neutral opinion about material like proposed by Mr. Knepper. I for one enjoyed the WW series tremendously, and use many of the touches in my work (and I don't mean only magic). Some of the effects are great and powerful. Personally, I do recommend the series as a good buy, but then again you might have quite the opposite opinion.

As for Kenton being a good perormer, well that is just a matter of taste. It dosn't effect his credibility as a teacher of this kind of material IMO. We have all had great teachers in the past, and what counts is the impact their teaching has on our lives, not on theirs.

Later...

Martin

Every one has their own biases and preferences. I don't think Wonder Words is the end all to end all, nor Completely Cold. But I do think if one understands some of the principles behind them then one can apply the works with great satisfaction. Some people get really good at playing scales on the piano - others go on to become world class pianists. It is the difference that makes the difference even though they all enjoy playing the smae notes.

It is the artist in artistry and art that utilizes what one is given to the maximum potential. One man's floor is another man's ceiling. Some can see merit where others can't. Some stop where others continue.

Ultimately you have to decide for your self and be happy with your decision or change you mind and re-decide. The bottom line is some people find value where others don't because they look at things differently.

Wonder Words is a fine series to help enhance what you do if you understand how to add it into what you do. Same with Completly Cold. It isn't meant to replace or be a substitute for other things - an enhancement, a way to suggest things, to direct attention - getting people to focus in particular areas as opposed to other areas. To find hits rather than misses when appropriate - when applied judiciously, with good taste, and thoughtfulness they may indeed work wonders. But whther they do or not is up to you - not the specific phrase.

And that is where most people miss the boat - they look at the phrase like they look at a gimmick. They think the 'thing' is the 'thing". It AIN'T. It is about process not about content. It is about the overall effect not the gimmick. When you focus on the words you lose sight of what is supposed to be happening. Your mind is misdirected - paying attention in the worng place and hence missing the value.

It's about how you use it - how YOU use it, about HOW YOU use it. Some people can whip up an incredible meal using the same ingredients another could choke you with. It is the application of the material and how you learn to use it with precision - not the magic phrasing of a sentence. Yes, I know that's what it seems like - especially with names like wonder words, but it is making all of your words have more impact when you understand how people understand langauge, how their brains work and how you can direct them by the artful use of language. The artful use of ...
the artful use of...
not the tricks and tips and gimmicks.

So it is much more than people reasolize or even appreciate. NLP of which wonder words represents only a small offering is incredible - highly misunderstood and under apprecaited by somem but that is okay.

It is about the artful application of the methods and approaches to get a worthwhile result in a given time period.
It is the study of subjective expereince - how people understand the world and the study of replicating excellence.

NLP offers nothing to mentalism - but a shrew practioner of mentalism can take what NLP has and apply it readily all over the place and get great results. The savvy mentalist can utlize NLP to do many wonderful things and enhance what they already do well.

But NLP is not an art for mentalism - it was designed to understand how people operate and how people get results. Wonder Words takes a little portion of NLP linguistics and applies it to performance and our arts. It isn't the whole enchilada - couldn't be but it is a good attempt at illuminating certain things. As is Completely Cold - when you understand how to use it. And that probably isn't too well explained within the skeletal framework of the short manuscript. A shortcoming for certain - but that aside - if one does understand it regardless and applies it well one has a powerful adjunct to their already existing methods.

Anyway enjoy!
Rex