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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » The problem with seances and the paranormal (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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IAIN
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Here's how I see it...

if you conduct a true/honest seance, and you get to make contact with the dead, STOP!

here's what it means...
a) that there is an afterlife
questions to consider:
if there is an afterlife, what is it like and how do you find out this information, and why is it important to know?

b) that a dead human being goes somewhere after death
questions to consider:
how did the person get there? are there rules that somehow control/enable them to get there?

c) that the dead human being can communicate with the living
questions to consider:
so imagine its YOU that has died, and are now in the afterlife, do you think you would undergo a personality change? if so, why? what information would you feel would be most important to pass onto others there?

d) the living can communicate with a dead human being
questions to consider:
what would be the most interesting questions to pose to someone in spirit? how would that impact your life and how you view the entire world?

these are just a few simple questions that I sometimes think about when I read up on seances and other similar things...

for me, the implication of a contactable dead human being is MASSIVE...and therefore requires a massive amount of thought and study too surely...because the proof of this contact has wide-spread impact on everything else in life (in my view)...

so for example, I am an atheist - I can see (at least) three distinct paths if you can indeed speak with a real dead human being...

1 - there is a god, and there is a heaven and hell, so does just one god exist or are there many? which ones?
2 - if there is such a tangible thing as a soul, is that what the person now becomes? if so, what are the rules? how does it work?
3 - something else entirely that I'm not aware of

my final thought is this...

why are ghosts from the victorian era so busy?
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docdazzal
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Iain...

Thanks for you comments and for your opinion...but I'm thinking you may be confusing "real" seance...from theatrical seance. Those who do "real" seance may or may not be for "real". But, theatrical seance generally isn't "performed" to trick folks into thinking the seance is a real one. Sorta like an illusion being performed...folks know that it isn't "real" but the performance of the illusion makes it seem as real.


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Dr. Dan
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innercirclewannabe
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I don't know if you can ever get a satisfactory answer to profound questions like this on a chat forum. That is not to dismiss the views of the members (of which I'm one), rather - the questions you pose warrant answers in a tome. Interesting thoughts nonetheless.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
IAIN
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2015, docdazzal wrote:
Iain...

Thanks for you comments and for your opinion...but I'm thinking you may be confusing "real" seance...from theatrical seance. Those who do "real" seance may or may not be for "real". But, theatrical seance generally isn't "performed" to trick folks into thinking the seance is a real one. Sorta like an illusion being performed...folks know that it isn't "real" but the performance of the illusion makes it seem as real.


Continued Success,
Dr. Dan


nope - I'm not confusing anything dan!
Smile

if you go to a seance, driven by someone who truly believes in spirits and that they have the ability and/or the know-how to interact with spirits...these are the questions that I believe are good ones to have in your head...

same goes for a theatrical one too, because you can address them in the pre-amble (to a degree)...
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mindpunisher
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You are also assuming that such a thing as a soul is tangible and that there are rules based upon "logic" associated with the physical world. Consciousness isn't tangible and doesn't have any rules we can grasp?

Maybe moving an object n the dark is enough.. maybe the spirit world exist within us and the dead move through us our thoughts our energy and our bodies.

Maybe we can't be separated. Maybe we are one.
IAIN
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MP - see point 3
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IAIN
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
You are also assuming that such a thing as a soul is tangible and that there are rules based upon "logic" associated with the physical world. Consciousness isn't tangible and doesn't have any rules we can grasp?

Maybe moving an object n the dark is enough.. maybe the spirit world exist within us and the dead move through us our thoughts our energy and our bodies.

Maybe we can't be separated. Maybe we are one.


though, it reads like you are kinda assuming things about stuff that I am saying I don't have the answer to?!

maybe there isn't a soul at all...
read 'logic' as 'rules' - there's rules to everything, its just a question of understanding them and understanding them - this I can only assume is somewhat easy to do in this instance, if its true that we can communicate with the spirits - we can ask them...

so lets look at "Maybe moving an object n the dark is enough" - maybe it is...so for me, the immediate questions that pop up are "why is moving an object important" and "how do they move the object" and "is that easier than moving a planchette on a ouija board (as an example)...the thing is, WE can't give the answers, we find the answers by communicating with these dead human beings...
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mindpunisher
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Yes Ive just made you aware of it...... Maybe if you just stop and listen in the stillness of the darkness you will get your answer...

Actually I did a few home parties years ago. At one of them the host sent someone through from the group that had lost her husband. Ever since she had gone from psychic to psychic to a number of seances. And was constantly grieving the host asked me to help her.

I told her husband was part of her inside her and moved through every cell in her body every minute of the day. Because when you become close to someone they become part of you they are you and you carry them about with you all the time. You can never lose them. And that she didn't need to go see a psychic or go to a seance just create stillness and ask her lost husband what she should do and if she listens she will get an answer a feeling. And she will know its time to move on..

This turned into a hypnosis session to try and help her. She seemed to take comfort from it but I never kept in touch to find out.

But it was the last psychic party I ever did. It was enough for me didn't want to do another.
mindpunisher
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Iain maybe an object moving in the dark is enough or a strange noise because to ask these questions is futile. Over analysis usually is futile in most things...important is relative and even subjective. What is important to one person is irrelevant to another.
IAIN
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Just thought it might make a change from the bickering Smile
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IAIN
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I do think though, that its far better to question these things, rather than just gobble up the status quo (not the band, though I'm sure they've done their fair share)...

when people make these claims, I don't think they always think through what the claim may mean...the implication of believing in something is very eye opening in my opinion...

i realise that's all it is... Smile
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Dr Spektor
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Mentalism grew mostly out of spiritualism tech and its reflected even in the 13 steps. Also, for those who do living and dead tests - what do you think it implies... and performers who do that as much as any performance that uses belief systems needs to look carefully at what they are doing and with who.

Also, just because some people think they might know the difference between a "real" seance, theatrical seance, spook-show, mental magic, mediumistic stunts, mentalism etc.... doesn't really mean others within the field or the public get the distinction.

Anyway, I always thought the troubles and fights around here are really based on if mentalism includes mediumistic effects etc. it becomes a dangerous zone. There is a reason I noticed many mentalists pros do not really do these types of effects for commercial shows etc. once you cross over to summer land - maybe you are not really a mentalist but a medium getting your powers/effects from the spirit world.

I guess my question is if someone plans to run a seancelike act or presentation and does not think about the impact and meaning before performing on their subjects / audience - that person may cause damage in many ways - including the perception of the entertainers who try to use these things.

Because this area is so powerful - does one question why one might use EVP (AR's) device - yes its cool etc. but what is the why to the performer, the effects meaning, what you want the participants to walk away with - and do you get into a dilemma of claiming what you are doing is "real" or not.... there are those who think its cool or gives them power to frighten or terrify their spectators - vs. getting them to think and reflect on things.... nothing wrong with scaring someone IF THEY CAME FOR THAT i.e, the frame is a SPOOK SHOW and we all know what the parameters are.... its where someone breaks the unspoken boundaries that things go wrong.

Anyway, we in the spooky land deal with this all the time and its through theatrical framing, staging and being clear about who the performer is, who the audience is, what the material is to play with etc.

IMHO

BOO
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IAIN
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I know seances are pretty much always billed as "for entertainment purposes only"...that's the get out clause...

i posted it here cos..well...there IS a section in 13 steps about mediumistic stunts...so why not? Smile

i had all these questions in my head waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before I even owned a magic or mentalism book...i'm sure I'm not the only one...

and I agree with Dr. S...

IMHOTEP
^in my honest opinion that's extra precious

Smile

even if it IS for entertainment, and you want it to be seen or rather considered to be possibly 'real' - for some people, certainly not everyone - there are a dozen darting questions that appear as soon as that consideration happens...

and its not to be a git over it either...its more like excitement and curiosity...

"ah right, so this guy can do XYZ...so how does that work? does that mean they can ABC too? what if they did *that* - how does it work?"

there are questions and implications because of what they are experiencing...
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Bill Cushman
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I think you should ask Monica The Medium.
Dr Spektor
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2015, IAIN wrote:

IMHOTEP

.


Image


heheheheh - wait until you see the 5000 year old prediction chest I'm working on Smile
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funsway
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Some interesting questions, Iain; and I certainly agree that if one could communicate with someone who has ascended,
would you waste time on trivial matters of earthy concerns like, "Where's the key to that safe deposit box?"

If we accept the premise that the spirit is eternal and has now "left this mortal coil" behind, why would this spirit have the slightest interest in why we earth worms want?
If "being in the presence of the divine" is have as incredible as touted by organized religions, then not a single spirit would wish to spend time with you and me.

If, alternately, we premise that the "soul" has some residual effluvia left over from the life experience, why would the spiritual essence wish to be drug back though the mire?

If the "ascended" self is still largely "you," with memories, fears, doubts, etc intact, then why would this be considered any "heaven?" -- sound miserable and boring to me.

Me? I hope my eternal spirit is given a new assignment as far from humanity as possible, but if I am punished to return for another try, I be blessed with forgetfulness over how much I screwed up the first time.

But, in possible answer to some of your questions, why would you assume that any answer given by a spirit would be the truth? If they did "know," why should they "reveal?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



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IAIN
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Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, funsway wrote:
If we accept the premise that the spirit is eternal


well, automatically you are asking me/others to accept a premise without questioning it...

how does spirit work? why is it eternal? is it linked to something else?

again, these are not awkward questions, just naturally occurring ones that just help explain everything you want me to accept off the bat...

if I were to accept the premise that the spirit is eternal, then that means anyone who has ever lived is a spirit, that is billions of people...waiting to get through maybe? all different languages and beliefs...asking different spirits would maybe get me different answers cos their beliefs differ...i dunno...
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Nestor D
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The implications of a seance are indeed massive.
It seems that those questions were raised more often when séances were just apearing ("if ghost wear clothes then, do we wear clothes in heaven ?" cf confessions of a medium) maybe we just get accustomed to the existence of seances and stoped asking questions ?
IAIN
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Yeah maybe...seems a bit wrong to let things go unquestioned for 200 years or so...

why so many victorian looking ghosts I wonder?
why not georgian?
i would put forward the idea that the victorian era is more identifiable within out psyche (in the west at least), and I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't know the difference between edwardian and victorian as an example...

why so many women in white or black?

no bronze age ghosts? why not? that kind of thing...
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funsway
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Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, funsway wrote:
If we accept the premise that the spirit is eternal

well, automatically you are asking me/others to accept a premise without questioning it...


Nope -- said offered "what if" as a foundation to a question -- a hypothetical.

but, your "auto" assumption does provide some further depth to you last question.

What assumptions do people going to seance make about the spirit they intend/hope to "draw forth?"

Why does this spirit come from a certain period? What will it speak a language understandable to the audience or medium? Why will it understand your questions?

It seems the skill/power/ability of the medium is in calling up the RIGHT spirit and just not ANY spirit.

If, on the other expectation, that only certain spirits are eternal or "available," why should they have any answer of value, or wish to share it or tell the truth?

I might even support the notion that there is some spirit amongst the billions who have "passed on" who would be willing to return for a moment to dabble in human silliness,
but surely not "on demand" or the specific one desired. Would they be available out of mirth. a desire to meddle or some "gotcha game?"

If, instead, there are ghosts in the popular pretense that they are "caught between," then they would not have the answers to the deeper questions you have asked.

Just wait until spirits discover FaceBook and start posting as a friend under some strange avatar. If they can shake bells they can push a computer key.
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