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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » The problem with seances and the paranormal (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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IAIN
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Nope. You've just reinforced one of my points.

Its about the individual's cultural references.

Native Americans don't see white Victorian era people because their belief structure works differently.

Slim has just proven ghosts are figments of the imagination, thanks Slim.

Smile Smile
Dr Spektor
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"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
Slim King
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Nope. You've just reinforced one of my points.

Its about the individual's cultural references.

Native Americans don't see white Victorian era people because their belief structure works differently.

Slim has just proven ghosts are figments of the imagination, thanks Slim.

Smile Smile

Again, proving once and for all that we do not all see victorian ghosts...... KISS... Ghost stick with their own kind Smile Why else come back?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Keith Raygor
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I will be present at a live seance conducted by Kreskin in October of this year. My last similar experience at the same venue was with Sylvia Browne. You'll find my impressions elsewhere on this forum, and I'll offer my further observations after the coming event.
Dr Spektor
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Hi Keith! Good to "see" you!
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
No- a real mentalist (and there are very few remaining today) is NOT a magician. And your saying the contrary doesn't make it so either.


I understand what you're saying--and agree that it's a different mindset, though beyond a point the argument comes dangerously close to "no true Scotsman."


Not really. I think you'll agree that most of those newcomers claiming to be "mentalists" nowadays simply aren't. And that's because they use the word without understanding what mentalism is.
IAIN
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2015, Slim King wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Nope. You've just reinforced one of my points.

Its about the individual's cultural references.

Native Americans don't see white Victorian era people because their belief structure works differently.

Slim has just proven ghosts are figments of the imagination, thanks Slim.

Smile Smile

Again, proving once and for all that we do not all see victorian ghosts...... KISS... Ghost stick with their own kind Smile Why else come back?


ROTFLMAO


Smile Smile

thanks for proving my point AGAIN, slim king...

people only conjour up ghosts and describe them based on their own cultural history, or what they get told what a ghost looks like...it was like le mezmer trying to mezmerize the little indian boy...

the lady in black/white
the mad monk
the king/queen/lord/lady
the cheeky children
the grim reaper
the hooded bad guy

culutural architypes...native americans imagine theirs too...

Smile Smile Smile

thanks AGAIN, slim...
IAIN
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So lets move on now...

let's say that ghosts appear in a spot that has meaning to them when they were alive...

how about these guys and their haunted toilets?
http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2015/05/th......gladesh/

if you get so scared you s**t yourself, good job you're on the potty, that's what I say...

why were so many ghosts attracted to those toilets? and how could you flush them out?

___________________________________________________________________________

i agree that everyone will form their own individual understanding of a spirit experience...for me, that just opens up more doors and more questions...

why can't it be agreed on?

we all agree on how elephants live, we all agree on how whales live, there are rudimentary, baseline behaviours we can expect...you don't see a herd of budgies go swimming do you...

so with spirit - these dead human beings:
we should be able to immediately identify them by how they express themselves shouldn't we?
if a psychic medium is interacting with them, clairaudient at least - then they would feedback exactly what they just heard, yes?

so if its a yes, then you would be able to recognise the ex alive human being's word usage too wouldn't you? I bet you can list three close friends or family members AND be able to say what words they use most, whether they say "ace" a lot, or use certain terminology cos of their job or way of life.

if NOT - that's an even better response, if NOT - then why? what changes? is it being said that when you become dead you can't speak in the same way as you did when alive? that's fascinating to me...why not...ask the spirit why that's changed? maybe there's a rule that means they're not allowed to...if so, who has made that rule and why?

why not ask which god is around, what its like, if they interact with it and in what way? describe summerland...maybe the same psychic medium could travel the world and ask in different countries, will they get different answers? why isn't it consistent?

if its different, are we saying "everyone experiences death differently" - that's fine too, that's just another rule to understand isn't it..

"ah" I hear you ask "ah, but iain...what if there are no rules?"

that's great too I'd say, that's great - then that means all the holy books are wrong. That's a really massive claim for YOU to have thought...so if you're saying all holy books are wrong, what happens?

etc

Smile
Doc_Z
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2015, Slim King wrote:
Ghost stick with their own kind Smile Why else come back?


Yeah, ghosts are such racists.
Alan Wheeler
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Magicians have used ghosts or spirits as a theme, for example, David Copperfield's Barkley House illusion. This approach seems on the level of Disney World or the Halloween haunted house--giving thrills without a any claim to reality.

Although I am not an authority on bizarre magic, it seems many of the effects focus on strange objects or phenomenon without the traditional spirit medium's communication with the dead. I am happy to be educated in this regard. I am thinking of Eugene Burger's presentation for Glorpy and his Ashes to Palm effect.

Mentalists who produce a real experience or phenomenon may face different ethical issues when bringing in the ghost theme.

I appreciate IAIN's thought-provoking thread!
I am very thankful to see the many POVs expressed here on this issue. Very illuminating!

For what it's worth, I think magical thinking (superstition), religion, and science co-exist and grow alongside each other with some interaction and interrelationship. For example, a Chinese scientist may also burn incense for the ancestors. This conception departs from Frazer in The Golden Bough, who argues magic evolved into religion which in turn gave way to science.
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
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mindpunisher
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Iain its easy to identify the word usage of a spirit.... they like to play spelling and number games with mediums who are forced to ask.... " who in the audience is connected to the letter P or number 14"... I think the spirits must be bored stiff that they play these games at every chance.
mindpunisher
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On Aug 27, 2015, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Uri used to be a real mentalist who is now mostly thought of as a magician who told lies. Who is right the media and public of today or the media and public of the past? - even Uri seems to have given up trying to be a real mentalist these days.


You clearly are NOT following his career to date. The man is never 'off'.

I'm intrigued what you know to the contrary. Can you elaborate?


Uri has in the past in the UK more or less hinted that his "powers" aren't real. He is no longer taken seriously over here with the media and most of the public. And even if he is "never off" it doesn't mean the public or media are on. They aren't - no one takes him seriously anymore. Times have changed. No one in the media and no one I know personally.
mindpunisher
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On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Mentalism and magic are two very distinct art forms. If you think that exposing mentalists before a lay audience would prove to them that we're magicians, you'd be wrong for many would refuse to believe the exposures.

The fact that so many of todays "mentalists" don't understand the difference is the reason why the art has become so trivialized lately. The problem is that too many magicians simply think that calling something mentalism doesn't make it so.

But you can't cut it both ways. If audiences believe magic and mentalism to be the same thing, the points being raised in this thread would be meaningless, because any apparently "mediumistic" phenomena presented by mentalists would then be perceived as magic tricks and the issue of it being too powerful, unethical,or even fraudulent, would be moot.


Ar rock singer calling himself an opera singer doesn't make him an opera singer but it still doesn't change that they are both different types of singers. Quite often TV mediums are believed to be using magician's methods. Of course that is to a large extent attributed to the magician's and mentalists who make programmes trying to expose them. Why would a mentalist or a magician be qualified to debunk mediums and psychics I wonder? Because to a certain degree they use the same "tricks" or "methods" "magicians tricks or methods.

Ans as you said in another post there is documented point of view that a mentalist is different to a magician - that's just one point of view. It may not be the most widely used one. You are most likely correct that most people who use the word mentalist aren't really mentalists and the art has been trivialized. that's progress unfortunately.
innercirclewannabe
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Quote:
On Aug 29, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Uri used to be a real mentalist who is now mostly thought of as a magician who told lies. Who is right the media and public of today or the media and public of the past? - even Uri seems to have given up trying to be a real mentalist these days.


You clearly are NOT following his career to date. The man is never 'off'.

I'm intrigued what you know to the contrary. Can you elaborate?


Uri has in the past in the UK more or less hinted that his "powers" aren't real. He is no longer taken seriously over here with the media and most of the public. And even if he is "never off" it doesn't mean the public or media are on. They aren't - no one takes him seriously anymore. Times have changed. No one in the media and no one I know personally.



Noting like a sweeping generalisation to try and make a point. He still attracts interest and intrigue. Only in the last couple of years the BBC made an hour long documentary about his life and times.I didn't see anyone laughing in the documentary, and more importantly, I don't think the BBC would waste public money on a documentary about a man who "no-one take seriously anymore", do you?
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
MM2714330
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I believe I spoke with a known dead relative through my 2 year old son. I didn't perform a seance it just happened. You're right it's MASSIVE. Me nor my wife who was there could sleep. Too many questions and possibilities. And one being that just because there is life after death doesn't necessarily mean there is a god. Thoughts about is luck really random or are some helped by the other side? If my wife's dead grandfather can linger around 4 weeks after his passing is there a time limit? If not then you better be a good boy when you think you're alone because your family on the other side can see what you're up to! Being that there appears to be life after death makes dying not so perminate thus aliviating fear of dying. Meaning you will see your children live their lives and possibly help them. It also means maybe you can ask for help? Anyway, my story is a long one but basically my two year old son who didn't know his great grandfather at all was able to answer detailed questions about him that he could not have known. And persisted to stare at a spot on the ceiling with great curiousity. Even later after initial contact stopped breast feeding and said "Goodnight Jack" to that same spot in the ceiling. Something extremely out of the ordinary for my son, something he could not have even been trained to do if I wanted to.

And about me, I'm not religious, I leave the door open for a higher power but acknowledge that may be to comforting myself but I'm ok with that.


Quote:
On Aug 26, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Here's how I see it...

if you conduct a true/honest seance, and you get to make contact with the dead, STOP!

here's what it means...
a) that there is an afterlife
questions to consider:
if there is an afterlife, what is it like and how do you find out this information, and why is it important to know?

b) that a dead human being goes somewhere after death
questions to consider:
how did the person get there? are there rules that somehow control/enable them to get there?

c) that the dead human being can communicate with the living
questions to consider:
so imagine its YOU that has died, and are now in the afterlife, do you think you would undergo a personality change? if so, why? what information would you feel would be most important to pass onto others there?

d) the living can communicate with a dead human being
questions to consider:
what would be the most interesting questions to pose to someone in spirit? how would that impact your life and how you view the entire world?

these are just a few simple questions that I sometimes think about when I read up on seances and other similar things...

for me, the implication of a contactable dead human being is MASSIVE...and therefore requires a massive amount of thought and study too surely...because the proof of this contact has wide-spread impact on everything else in life (in my view)...

so for example, I am an atheist - I can see (at least) three distinct paths if you can indeed speak with a real dead human being...

1 - there is a god, and there is a heaven and hell, so does just one god exist or are there many? which ones?
2 - if there is such a tangible thing as a soul, is that what the person now becomes? if so, what are the rules? how does it work?
3 - something else entirely that I'm not aware of

my final thought is this...

why are ghosts from the victorian era so busy?
Slim King
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Such a great story!!!!! These are the kinds of things that are irrefutable. Real life situations!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
MM2714330
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On Jan 11, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Such a great story!!!!! These are the kinds of things that are irrefutable. Real life situations!!!!


It gives me a solid authentic foundation to be presenting something of interest. That makes the effects feel genuine so long as they are not outside of my interest to explore what happened to me. Nothing about what I present can appear to be a gimmick. No haunted keys!
jstreiff
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Sorry for the late response to a prior posting starting that the phrase 'anything is possible' is only an assumption on my part.

The statement is based on some fairly uncontroversial facts.

1. We don't have reliable contact with objective reality. Even in scientific experiments, there are limits to our inquiries.
2. We have been around for the blink of a cosmic eye and doing science for a fraction of that time.
3. Physicists, who are paid to understand reality, cannot agree if things as simple as matter or motion are real or illusory.

Clearly, we don't know what we don't know. And therefore by logical, rational deduction Anything Is Possible. Put more bluntly, as a species, we are too ignorant to state that anything is necessarily impossible.
John
IAIN
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Well, man cant breathe underwater without help can they...

And we know a bit, certainly only just starting to understand ourselves and the known world...

I think anything is possible is an interesting concept, I'm not sure if its quite the right thing to focus on though...

Maybe water can suddenly move in the air, in a circle and change colour or grow wings...
Tony Iacoviello
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Arn't clouds water that moves around in the air, they change color and shape too...
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