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rockwall
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Http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2015/09/0......ns-hair/

"A Pennsylvania barbershop has been fined $750 for refusing to cut a woman’s hair."

Wow, only $750! Peanuts compared to the bakers in Oregon who got fined $135,000.

I guess 'gay' trumps 'female' by a big, big margin.
balducci
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The bakers were ordered to pay damages of $135,000 to the couple they refused service to. I'm not sure whether it was a "fine" per se. The couple lodged a complaint with a State agency and that agency brought charges. Perhaps in part because the bakers were sort of !@#$%^&es and doubled down with further damaging comments in the media.

OTOH, the barber paid the original basic fine and said he would be willing to serve ladies in future.

So it seems to me that there are a number of meaningful differences in the two cases. YMMV.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Destiny
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Quote:
On Sep 8, 2015, rockwall wrote:


"A Pennsylvania barbershop has been fined $750 for refusing to cut a woman’s hair."

Wow, only $750! Peanuts compared to the bakers in Oregon who got fined $135,000.

I guess 'gay' trumps 'female' by a big, big margin.



So 'traditional' marriage, which apparently is one of the foundation stones of all that's good and right and moral in the world, can be equated with getting a few split ends snipped off?
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Destiny, what a fantastic and telling observation yours is!
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, Destiny wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 8, 2015, rockwall wrote:


"A Pennsylvania barbershop has been fined $750 for refusing to cut a woman’s hair."

Wow, only $750! Peanuts compared to the bakers in Oregon who got fined $135,000.

I guess 'gay' trumps 'female' by a big, big margin.



So 'traditional' marriage, which apparently is one of the foundation stones of all that's good and right and moral in the world, can be equated with getting a few split ends snipped off?


No one was refusing to marry them Destiny, so it might be more accurate to say having someone make you a cake can be equated with getting a few split ends snipped off.
E.S. Andrews
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Or maybe, Rockwall, other facts and circumstances accounted for the different outcomes to these dissimilar cases of business services discrimination:


The Pennsylvania Barber Shop Case

1. The Pennsylvania barber shop in question specifically marketed itself as an upscale gentleman's room, bar, and barber shop, a man cave where men came to congregate, have a beer, and get a traditional barber's haircut.

2. The woman who filed the complaint with Pennsylvania's Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs had made an online booking for haircuts for her and her boyfriend.

3. When they showed up, the owner of the shop was gracious, explained that they really didn't cut women's hair and weren't equipped for it (no woman had ever requested a haircut there), and even offered to pay for the woman to get a haircut at a place nearby that he recommended.

4. After the woman filed her complaint, the owner of the barbershop was contrite, said he hadn't really realized he was legally compelled to also cut women's hair, explained that he hadn't conceived that a woman would want her hair cut in his establishment and was caught by surprise, said he'd certainly cut women's hair in the future if anyone wanted it, and said the experience had even given him the idea of opening a shop to cater specifically to female clients.

5. The barbershop owner took his medicine and paid the fine "out of respect for the law."



The Oregon Wedding Cake Case

1. Oregon law specifically bars businesses from discriminating or refusing service based on sexual orientation.

2. The Oregon wedding cake bakery had a booth at a public bridal show advertising their wedding cakes and inviting the public to cake-tastings at their bakery.

3. The lesbian bride to be and her mother attended the bridal show, had previously attended one of the bakery's public cake-tastings, loved the cake designs they saw, and approached the owners at their booth to put in an order for a wedding cake.

4. During the order intake, the bakery owners, seeing that the wedding cake would be for two women, refused to take the order for this "sinful" wedding, publicly berated the bride to be, and lectured her and her mother on "God's" law.

5. The bride to be left the show in tears, humiliated and traumatized by the public and illegal display of homophobia she had endured, and she and her partner later filed a complaint with the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries.

6. After the complaint was filed, the bakery owners remained defiant, said they would not “back down,” publicly proclaimed Oregon law invalid and superseded by "God's law" and "God's truth," said they would continue to refuse orders for wedding cakes for same-sex weddings, and vowed to appeal any punishment that might be imposed.


Nah. Too nuanced. Let's go with Rockwall's trite, homophobic, "it pays to be gay" non-sequitur.
balducci
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On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:

Nah. Too nuanced. Let's go with Rockwall's trite, homophobic, "it pays to be gay" non-sequitur.

Actually, it really pays (at least in certain communities) to be homophobic.

The Oregon bakers raised well over $400,000 on assorted crowd funding sites to pay the $135,000 in damages. Their fund-raising campaigns were kicked off one or two sites, but they were still allowed to keep the money. For instance, see:

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/or......g-120153

The above doesn't even include what they raised on the "Persecuted Christians USA" Samaritan's Purse site. I'd bet they made some solid coin there.

So, taking the above into account, the barber got a real raw deal. He's still working. The bakers made enough to retire from their brick and mortar business.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
E.S. Andrews
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Indeed, balducci.

In rockwallian speak, I guess 'homophobia' trumps 'respect for the law' by a big, big margin.
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LOL, you're not biased, are you?!?! Just call "homophobic" and hope that it sticks. Predictable.


Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
Or maybe, Rockwall, other facts and circumstances accounted for the different outcomes to these dissimilar cases of business services discrimination:


The Pennsylvania Barber Shop Case

1. The Pennsylvania barber shop in question specifically marketed itself as an upscale gentleman's room, bar, and barber shop, a man cave where men came to congregate, have a beer, and get a traditional barber's haircut.

2. The woman who filed the complaint with Pennsylvania's Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs had made an online booking for haircuts for her and her boyfriend.

3. When they showed up, the owner of the shop was gracious, explained that they really didn't cut women's hair and weren't equipped for it (no woman had ever requested a haircut there), and even offered to pay for the woman to get a haircut at a place nearby that he recommended.

4. After the woman filed her complaint, the owner of the barbershop was contrite, said he hadn't really realized he was legally compelled to also cut women's hair, explained that he hadn't conceived that a woman would want her hair cut in his establishment and was caught by surprise, said he'd certainly cut women's hair in the future if anyone wanted it, and said the experience had even given him the idea of opening a shop to cater specifically to female clients.

5. The barbershop owner took his medicine and paid the fine "out of respect for the law."



The Oregon Wedding Cake Case

1. Oregon law specifically bars businesses from discriminating or refusing service based on sexual orientation.

2. The Oregon wedding cake bakery had a booth at a public bridal show advertising their wedding cakes and inviting the public to cake-tastings at their bakery.

3. The lesbian bride to be and her mother attended the bridal show, had previously attended one of the bakery's public cake-tastings, loved the cake designs they saw, and approached the owners at their booth to put in an order for a wedding cake.

4. During the order intake, the bakery owners, seeing that the wedding cake would be for two women, refused to take the order for this "sinful" wedding, publicly berated the bride to be, and lectured her and her mother on "God's" law.

5. The bride to be left the show in tears, humiliated and traumatized by the public and illegal display of homophobia she had endured, and she and her partner later filed a complaint with the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries.

6. After the complaint was filed, the bakery owners remained defiant, said they would not “back down,” publicly proclaimed Oregon law invalid and superseded by "God's law" and "God's truth," said they would continue to refuse orders for wedding cakes for same-sex weddings, and vowed to appeal any punishment that might be imposed.


Nah. Too nuanced. Let's go with Rockwall's trite, homophobic, "it pays to be gay" non-sequitur.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
rockwall
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Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
Or maybe, Rockwall, other facts and circumstances accounted for the different outcomes to these dissimilar cases of business services discrimination:


...

The Oregon Wedding Cake Case

1. Oregon law specifically bars businesses from discriminating or refusing service based on sexual orientation.

Apparently Pennsylvania also has laws against discriminating against gender, otherwise they wouldn't have broken any laws. So, nothing dissimilar there.

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
2. The Oregon wedding cake bakery had a booth at a public bridal show advertising their wedding cakes and inviting the public to cake-tastings at their bakery.

Ummm, so? That actually has something to do with the case?

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
3. The lesbian bride to be and her mother attended the bridal show, had previously attended one of the bakery's public cake-tastings, loved the cake designs they saw, and approached the owners at their booth to put in an order for a wedding cake.

Again, so?

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
4. During the order intake, the bakery owners, seeing that the wedding cake would be for two women, refused to take the order for this "sinful" wedding, publicly berated the bride to be, and lectured her and her mother on "God's" law.

"Publicly berated and lectured" Translation: They explained why they wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay couple. (I'm sure that if we wanted to hyperventilate, we could describe what happened at the barbershop as, "The barbers publicly berated the woman and lectured her on how his shop only served men".

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
5. The bride to be left the show in tears, humiliated and traumatized by the public and illegal display of homophobia she had endured, and she and her partner later filed a complaint with the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries.

"Humiliated and traumatized". Wow Dr. Andrews, is that your professional opinion? Also, please quote me Oregon law that makes it a crime to hurt someones feelings cause right now I'm feeling publicly humiliated and traumatized and I'm wondering if I can file a lawsuit!

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
6. After the complaint was filed, the bakery owners remained defiant, said they would not “back down,” publicly proclaimed Oregon law invalid and superseded by "God's law" and "God's truth," said they would continue to refuse orders for wedding cakes for same-sex weddings, and vowed to appeal any punishment that might be imposed.

I'm wondering if this is the part that makes the difference of $134,250 in the fine. If it is, seems a tad steep to me.

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
Nah. Too nuanced. Let's go with Rockwall's trite, homophobic, "it pays to be gay" non-sequitur.


Non-sequitur? Everything that's been posted so far basically confirms my initial conclusion. The outrageous difference in the fines is basically because one party was gay and it's so much worse to refuse services to someone who's gay than for any other reason.
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But what if they won so much money in the cake case only because they were women?
Destiny
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Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, rockwall wrote:

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
4. During the order intake, the bakery owners, seeing that the wedding cake would be for two women, refused to take the order for this "sinful" wedding, publicly berated the bride to be, and lectured her and her mother on "God's" law.

"Publicly berated and lectured" Translation: They explained why they wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay couple. (I'm sure that if we wanted to hyperventilate, we could describe what happened at the barbershop as, "The barbers publicly berated the woman and lectured her on how his shop only served men".



Absolutely nowhere is there anything to suggest that the barber was anything but polite and helpful to the woman. There is nothing to suggest he berated or lectured her - in fact everything I have read suggests otherwise.

And this has been the problem with the anti same sex marriage hysteria from the start.

Those opposed to same sex marriage have thrown everything including the kitchen sink at the argument rather than rely on facts... if there are any. (Who'd know in among all the talk of bestiality, polygamy and the end of civilisation?) I saw an Englishman on a panel show here a few weeks ago say that the problem with same sex marriage was that gays were slandering Christians and Christians were feeling persecuted. Now if that is the case (and I put aside those people, some of them Christian, some of them gay, who aren't happy unless they're claiming to be martyred over some perceived sleight) the separate problem is that gays are slandering Christians and Christians are feeling persecuted. It is NOT an argument against same sex marriage.

When all this debate initially started a few years ago I would have classified myself as mildly opposed to same sex marriage. I couldn't understand the need for it, but over time I was persuaded to its merits, not by the arguments of those in favour but by the hyperbole and BS of those opposed.

In fact I would dare to say that this is exactly why same sex marriage enjoys the support it does - because the loudest opponents never mounted solid fact based argument against it, instead preferring to continue with the same invective, hysteria and hateful prejudice that homosexuals have endured for centuries.

Speaking of hyperbole and BS, I saw some politician being cheered for offering himself up to go to jail instead of the county clerk. What does he think he is? A #$%&*@ hostage negotiator? "Let the women and children go, and take me instead!" Puhleeze!!!!!!!!!
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There's an old, old story about a couple of German officers in WWII entering a German shop and asking for one dozen left-handed coffee cups. The proprietor told them that there was no such thing as left-handed coffee cups and asked them to leave. They then went to a Jewish shop and asked for one dozen left-handed coffee cups. The proprietor replied, "Well, as luck would have it, I happen to have one dozen left-handed coffee cups. I had intended to return them to the manufacturer as I hadn't ordered them, but I'll be happy to sell them to you. They're rare, so they're a little more expensive than other coffee cups."

Who's the smarter proprietor?

(I, for one, dislike the idea of same-sex marriage. But I've performed at same-sex wedding receptions. Honestly, how does it affect me in the least?)
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Regarding the bakers:

"The bakery owners shared the couple's personal contact information [on Facebook and elsewhere] - which led to death threats that nearly caused them [the couple] to lose custody of their foster children"

The bakers also:

"brought the case to the media's attention and kept it there by repeatedly appearing in public to make statements deriding the couple"

Trying to equate their actions to that of the barber is laughable.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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If "Traditional" Marriage is so Sacred and Honorable, why do 50% of all Traditional Marriages end in Divorce? Why so much cheating? Hypocrisy maybe?

How does the Marriage of ANY two consenting Adults effect me or anyone here at the Café?
I don't understand why so many people have to feel threatened by anyone's choice of Partnership or their Sexual Persuasion.

I say get a Life and mind your own business.
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rockwall
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On Sep 10, 2015, balducci wrote:
Regarding the bakers:

"The bakery owners shared the couple's personal contact information [on Facebook and elsewhere] - which led to death threats that nearly caused them [the couple] to lose custody of their foster children"

The bakers also:

"brought the case to the media's attention and kept it there by repeatedly appearing in public to make statements deriding the couple"

Trying to equate their actions to that of the barber is laughable.



Equating the actions of the two is based on what the fines were for. As I understand it, the fines were based on refusal of services. Can you show that the bakers fines were based on either sharing the couples personal information or appearing in public about and making statements about the couple?
rockwall
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On Sep 10, 2015, Destiny wrote:
...

Absolutely nowhere is there anything to suggest that the barber was anything but polite and helpful to the woman. There is nothing to suggest he berated or lectured her - in fact everything I have read suggests otherwise.

...


Destiny, you have again completely missed my point. I didn't really think that the barber berated or lectured the lady in question. I was pointing out that the words "berated" and "lectured" were being used in the case of the bakers as hot button words to make what they did sound as bad as possible. I wasn't there so I really don't know but my guess is that the description that they "berated and lectured" the couple is a misrepresentation of what really happened to create the biggest emotional response as possible.
rockwall
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My entire complaint with this is the outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs. The couple would just as likely refuse to make a cake with the inscription "Happy Abortion" for someone celebrating avoiding the punishment of having to raise a child or even "God Hates F$gs" for a Westboro Baptist Church celebration. The difference between me and those who are happy with the courts actions is that I'd defend the couple's right not to make any of those cakes while I'm pretty sure others wouldn't want them punished for refusing. (OK, maybe they would for not making the Abortion cake but certainly not for the Westboro Baptist cake.)
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On Sep 10, 2015, rockwall wrote:
My entire complaint with this is the outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs. The couple would just as likely refuse to make a cake with the inscription "Happy Abortion" for someone celebrating avoiding the punishment of having to raise a child or even "God Hates F$gs" for a Westboro Baptist Church celebration. The difference between me and those who are happy with the courts actions is that I'd defend the couple's right not to make any of those cakes while I'm pretty sure others wouldn't want them punished for refusing. (OK, maybe they would for not making the Abortion cake but certainly not for the Westboro Baptist cake.)


So true. Those with religious beliefs get prosecuted when exercising their freedom rights and choices but when it comes to the other side of the coin it is ok. Hypocrisy at it's best.
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I found a hair in my lesbian cake. Who should I sue?
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