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balducci
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Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, balducci wrote:
Regarding the bakers:

"The bakery owners shared the couple's personal contact information [on Facebook and elsewhere] - which led to death threats that nearly caused them [the couple] to lose custody of their foster children"

The bakers also:

"brought the case to the media's attention and kept it there by repeatedly appearing in public to make statements deriding the couple"

Trying to equate their actions to that of the barber is laughable.


Equating the actions of the two is based on what the fines were for. As I understand it, the fines were based on refusal of services. Can you show that the bakers fines were based on either sharing the couples personal information or appearing in public about and making statements about the couple?

You appear to misunderstand nearly everything about the case.

As I suggested before, the payments were not 'fines' per se, they were court decided damages paid to the couple based on a court action.

The court specifically said "Any damages awarded do not constitute a fine or civil penalty, which the Commissioner has no authority to impose in a case such as this. Instead, any damages fairly compensate RBC and LBC for the harm they suffered and which was proven at hearing. This is an important distinction as this order does not punish respondents for their illegal conduct but, rather makes whole those subjected to the harm their conduct caused."

http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pa......20FO.pdf

And while YMMV, the findings of the court certainly do seem to support "berate" as a fair description of some of the bakers' actions.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Destiny
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On Sep 10, 2015, RNK wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, rockwall wrote:
My entire complaint with this is the outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs. The couple would just as likely refuse to make a cake with the inscription "Happy Abortion" for someone celebrating avoiding the punishment of having to raise a child or even "God Hates F$gs" for a Westboro Baptist Church celebration. The difference between me and those who are happy with the courts actions is that I'd defend the couple's right not to make any of those cakes while I'm pretty sure others wouldn't want them punished for refusing. (OK, maybe they would for not making the Abortion cake but certainly not for the Westboro Baptist cake.)


So true. Those with religious beliefs get prosecuted when exercising their freedom rights and choices but when it comes to the other side of the coin it is ok. Hypocrisy at it's best.


To a degree, I agree. The main problem is the religious people who claim martyrdom when none exists for perceived and exaggerated sleights, and before you protest, I agree, the irreligious, AND gays, can be just as bad. I would include the religious who claim other people's marriages undermine their own as false martyrs along with gays who don''t understand it's not homophobia when someone just doesn't like them.

In my ideal world, if a person of belief did not want to bake a wedding cake for a same sex wedding they would politely decline citing their belief, and the gays would politely accept, but obviously from the court judgement that's not what happened here.

I have, on very rare occasions, been a customer at businesses which have been rude to me (usually the sort of businesses which are rude to everyone - we've all experienced those) and I simply take my custom elsewhere - simple.

The exception was when I was 18 and a fruit shop near the newspaper where I worked, employed a girl who saw me walking by during the day to work at the paper and then later going to work in a drag show and she continually loudly mocked me, pointing me out to customers and ridiculing me - one day I lost it and stormed in and threatened to throw fruit from one end of the shop to the other. The next day she had to come to the newspaper building in tears because the elderly Italian owners were going to fire her over it. I did not want to see her lose her job, immediately forgave her and bought fruit and veges at that shop for years after. The girl turned out to be lovely - just a silly kid not realising how hurtful she was being.

Being nice to people really does work.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, balducci wrote:
....

http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pa......20FO.pdf

And while YMMV, the findings of the court certainly do seem to support "berate" as a fair description of some of the bakers' actions.


I did a search on the document you linked to but I wasn't able to find "berate" anywhere in there. Maybe you'd be so kind as to point out what part you're referring to.
balducci
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Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, balducci wrote:
....

http://www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pa......20FO.pdf

And while YMMV, the findings of the court certainly do seem to support "berate" as a fair description of some of the bakers' actions.


I did a search on the document you linked to but I wasn't able to find "berate" anywhere in there. Maybe you'd be so kind as to point out what part you're referring to.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "search" the document; it is not a "searchable" pdf as it is only a scan. No word will turn up in a normal pdf search of the document I linked to. Maybe try just reading it?

And I don't know if the word "berate" appears in the document, I did not notice it, but I think that word is a fair description of some of the bakers' actions.

Anyway, I was not the one to introduce that word berate in this discussion. What E.S. Andrews said was about how someone "publicly berated the bride to be, and lectured her and her mother on God's law". According to the court's finding of facts, that (the lecturing and public comments) occurred.

Whether or not that fits your definition of "berate" I guess depends on your meaning of the term. Some synonyms of the word berate (according to Merriam-Webster) are to scold, reprimand, chide, admonish, criticize, and those seem to fit the facts presented.

Whether you consider it berating or not does not change the facts. The court assessed damages. It was not a simple fine like with the barber. The barber never verbally attacked or criticized his customer or the customer's way of life.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
rockwall
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Ha, well I 'thought' I did a search! I did a control-S and typed in a search word that it didn't find. But you're right, it's not a PDF which I didn't realize. Thank you for pointing that out. I 'suppose' I could have just read it but it IS 122 pages long!
landmark
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My entire complaint with this is the outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs

So you believe that it is unjust to put someone out of business based on their repeated attempts to deny service based on someone's color--as long as it's a "personally held conviction." Nice.

In the real world, people are considered heroes when they protest the denial of other's civil rights, not when they are in fact the ones doing the denying.
rockwall
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So, you want to put words in my mouth now? I'd say that's so unlike you landmark, but I guess I'd be lying.
irossall
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I'm going to make an appointment with a gynecologist. I will file a lawsuit if I get denied complete service.
Later today I am going to join the local Women's Reading Club AND demand they take the word "Women's" out of the club's name.
I DEMAND SATISFACTION!!!!!
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Destiny
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Don't blame us if the gynecologist errs on the side of legal caution, and you can't walk for a week after the pelvic examination. Smile
landmark
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On Sep 10, 2015, rockwall wrote:
So, you want to put words in my mouth now? I'd say that's so unlike you landmark, but I guess I'd be lying.

I put no words in your mouth. I quoted them:

Quote:
My entire complaint with this is the outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs
The Hermit
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In either of these cases, no one was harmed. These are people that want to star in political theater. The barber has a business to specialize in Men. What is wrong with a modern woman that can't realize that's OK and go somewhere else. No harm. You know the baker is a Christian, why force him to bake your cake. Go somewhere else. No great harm. There are plenty of gay bakers out there. The woman and the lesbians are not facing real discrimination, just people that don't have an interest in providing a service for them because it conflicts with what they do. They can get haircuts and cakes other places. Live and let live.

The question for the bakers issue is If I have to service the customer, do I have also be a part of a service I don't agree with? It's not just that they're lesbians, it's that they are requiring the baker to supply something for a service they don't think is right.
rockwall
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On Sep 11, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 10, 2015, rockwall wrote:
So, you want to put words in my mouth now? I'd say that's so unlike you landmark, but I guess I'd be lying.

I put no words in your mouth. I quoted them:

Quote:
My entire complaint with this is the outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs


Show me the quote where I said, "repeated attempts to deny service based on someone's color" or else shut the f up.
landmark
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outrageous fine given to someone for the practice of their personally held convictions and the attempt to put someone out of business for those beliefs

is the general from which all specifics afterwards follow.
landmark
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On Sep 11, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
In either of these cases, no one was harmed. These are people that want to star in political theater. The barber has a business to specialize in Men. What is wrong with a modern woman that can't realize that's OK and go somewhere else. No harm. You know the baker is a Christian, why force him to bake your cake. Go somewhere else. No great harm. There are plenty of gay bakers out there. The woman and the lesbians are not facing real discrimination, just people that don't have an interest in providing a service for them because it conflicts with what they do. They can get haircuts and cakes other places. Live and let live.

The question for the bakers issue is If I have to service the customer, do I have also be a part of a service I don't agree with? It's not just that they're lesbians, it's that they are requiring the baker to supply something for a service they don't think is right.


Next time I go shopping, I'll be sure to bring a pencil to fill out the questionnaire on why I'm buying what I'm buying. Hope I answer the right way. Dare I eat a peach?
mastermindreader
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I wonder if someone who refused to serve Jews for "religious" reasons would be defended by the same folks who are defending the baker? (I suspect they might WANT to defend him, but just know better.)
The Hermit
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On Sep 11, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 11, 2015, The Hermit wrote:
In either of these cases, no one was harmed. These are people that want to star in political theater. The barber has a business to specialize in Men. What is wrong with a modern woman that can't realize that's OK and go somewhere else. No harm. You know the baker is a Christian, why force him to bake your cake. Go somewhere else. No great harm. There are plenty of gay bakers out there. The woman and the lesbians are not facing real discrimination, just people that don't have an interest in providing a service for them because it conflicts with what they do. They can get haircuts and cakes other places. Live and let live.

The question for the bakers issue is If I have to service the customer, do I have also be a part of a service I don't agree with? It's not just that they're lesbians, it's that they are requiring the baker to supply something for a service they don't think is right.


Next time I go shopping, I'll be sure to bring a pencil to fill out the questionnaire on why I'm buying what I'm buying. Hope I answer the right way. Dare I eat a peach?


More pointless rhetoric.
landmark
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The question for the bakers issue is If I have to service the customer, do I have also be a part of a service I don't agree with


So if I walk into your hardware store looking for a nail, I have to explain to you why I want it before I can buy it from you because I might be using it in a service of which you don't approve?

Is that really the position you're defending?
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No one asked the baker to be part of a service. He was simply asked to bake a cake.

I was wondering, though, if I decide to order pizzas for our next Black Mass at my house, can Domino's refuse to deliver?
balducci
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Here's a story most of you probably missed, it being in Canada and all.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ca.......3225224

A city bus driver nearing the end of his 1 year probationary period calls press conferences to announce that he refuses to drive the City of Calgary's one rainbow-coloured pride bus that was going to be in service for 1 week. Mind you, no one ever asked him to drive it. Of course, he also makes obligatory comments against the gay lifestyle etc. Talks about how abhorrent it all is to the street church he belongs to.

The City has cause to fire him for violating various conditions of him employment (especially as he was only a probationary driver in the first place), and eventually does so. The City notes that this guy used social media to post Nazi-related content. The fellow denies this, says he hates Neo-Nazis etc.

Yet, coincidentally, his Church features, front and center, on its home page an article about a Neo-Nazi supporting the driver and protesting the same bus.

Sigh.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
The Hermit
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On Sep 15, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
No one asked the baker to be part of a service. He was simply asked to bake a cake.

I was wondering, though, if I decide to order pizzas for our next Black Mass at my house, can Domino's refuse to deliver?



I don't know and that is my point. You may have to service a customer regardless of race, religion, etc. The cake was a gay wedding cake. They didn't believe in gay marriage and didn't want to be associated with it. If a lesbian ordered a muffin, you would have to serve her. However, does that same law impel me to service your black mass or any function. Seems like two separate things.

However, you are the lawyer so I defer to your view. I think no on should be discriminated against, but this political theater is tiresome. Don't get service you want, go elsewhere.
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