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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts 
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Quote:
On Sep 14, 2015, MuscleMagic wrote: IIRC, Max's position is that since it has a very unique meaning when applied to magic, then it should have an equally unique pronunciation when talking about such.
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts
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On Sep 15, 2015, Orlan wrote: Many French people have no clue about the English pronunciation of words, especially French ones, as they wonder how it would be pronounced in English... P! |
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1946 Posts
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Agreed. In any case the way the word équivoque is pronounced by a native French speaker will have little or no bearing on the way it's pronounced in a different language. The word's spelling will be, more often than not, the determining factor.
As an example, you'll understand why J.B. Bobo's great-grandfather J. BeauBeaux, who was a French immigrant, anglicized their last name. In French, both names are pronounced identically. J.B. Bobo is the author of "Modern Coin Magic". |
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MeetMagicMike Inner circle Gainesville Fl 3504 Posts
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I'm glad I'm not the only one confused about this issue.
Are there other words magician's often mispronounce? |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1670 Posts
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As someone who studied French at school, I've always pronounced this word in the French manner, i.e. ek-wi-okay, even though as an Englishman I should probably pronounce it ek-wi-voke. However, I like Max Maven's reasoning for using the former, so shall continue to say it this way, even if it does annoy some magicians. Anyhow, if the word has a unique meaning to magic, then I fail to see how any of the three pronunciations can be labelled as wrong.
Also, the inclusion of an accent above the e as encourages us magicians to pronounce it as a french word, rightly or wrongly. Incidentally, if I was speaking to someone into UK about my trip to France, I'd pronounce the capital as Paris. However, if I was having the same conversation with a Frenchman in the UK, I'd use the french pronunciation. I've always considered this to be more polite. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts
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I have always read it as 'Ek-wiv-okey', possibly influenced by French pronunciation, possibly by the similarity to 'equivalent'. It's interesting that the two US pronunciations given by the online Oxford site above are different, ekwəvōk and ēkwəˌvōk (just varying the long, short e at the start).
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1946 Posts
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As a native French speaker, I can assure you that ek-wi-okay or Ek-wiv-okey is not the way it's pronounced in French in France, though it might be slightly different in a few other French speaking counties, the last syllable will not rhyme with OK.
Here's the way it's pronounced in French équivoque which phonetically sounds more like ekivok. Just in case you're wondering, Le Larousse is an authoritative source in France. I had a thought, the verb in its infinitive form, équivoquer i.e. to equivoke (though I am not sure the verb exists in English), sounds a bit more like ekivokey, and could the source of the confusion. This discussion reminds me about the diverse ways of saying garage, tomato or potato etc... in English
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Francois Lagrange Veteran user Paris, France 383 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 16, 2015, Claudio wrote: Correct Claudio, and as you said in a previous post, forget about the French pronunciation and speak the word as an English speaker would, without being inhibited by its origin.
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1670 Posts
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Quote:
As a native French speaker, I can assure you that ek-wi-okay or Ek-wiv-okey is not the way it's pronounced in French in France, though it might be slightly different in a few other French speaking counties, the last syllable will not rhyme with OK. Yes, I did mean to mention this in my previous post, but forgot. The ek-wi-okay pronunciation is the way many native English speaking magicians, myself included, think this word would be pronounced in French. I know quite a few French magicians and I think they all say ek-i-vok not ek-wi-okay. Maybe we should all just stick to "Magician's Choice" or "Verbal Control", which is another term Max Maven uses in reference to this technique? |
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ddyment Inner circle Gibsons, BC, Canada 2501 Posts
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I don't see that it has a special meaning in magic.
It seems to me that magicians use it to mean the same thing as everyone else does: "An expression capable of having more than one meaning; the fact of having more than one meaning or possible interpretation." [Oxford definition]
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1670 Posts
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Doug, if I'm correctly interpreting the French word, it describes an expression with a double meaning. When a magician uses equivoque, the word is used to describe a process that combines verbal !@#$**g and double entendre, which is a slightly more complex affair. I think it is a good word for a useful technique and certainly has nothing to do with the adult entertainment industry, although my formatting choices makes it look otherwise!
Marty |
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R.E. Byrnes Inner circle 1206 Posts
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Of course it has a special, specific meaning in the context of magic, in that it describes a distinctive procedure that's nothing like any other circumstance the word is applied to. Once you get away from the silly idea that it must be spoken as it would be in French (despite the advocates for this position typically not following that rule as to any other French-derived word), Max Maven's apparent suggestion that the distinctive magic meaning be coupled with a distinctive pronunciation makes a lot of sense, far more than just using the French pronunciation and leaving it at that. As between the word being pronounced so as to convey "I know French" versus a pronunciation that signals that the subject is a particular technique used by magicians, it's the latter pronunciation that serves clarity and precision, whereas the former conveys a certain pomposity.
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Cameron Roat Special user Michigan 728 Posts
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You're both talking about "equivocation." See my earlier post in this thread...
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1670 Posts
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No, I don't believe we are. The commonly accepted term in magic is "equivoque" or "magician's choice".
The meanings of words and phrases change due to usage. For most magicians, even such luminaries as Max Maven, equivoque = equivocation. Anyhow, the words are synonyms, so have similar, if not identical, meanings. I'd prefer to use the one that most magicians would understand the specific meaning of. |
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Ado Inner circle New York City 1033 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 16, 2015, martyjacobs wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do you pronounce "baroque"? P! |
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pedro95 New user 37 Posts
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We pronounce "ba-rok". (With an "A" like in "matter", note like in "make", and the french-like "R")
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Cameron Roat Special user Michigan 728 Posts
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Perhaps I should have included the full quote from Ron Bauer...
Quote:
...I mention this because these terms should be understood and used correctly. There are many subtleties that could be applied in a wide variety of ways. Some of which might even be good! |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1670 Posts
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That quote doesn't mean Ron Bauer is right. In fact, I think he's wrong. I've checked several standard sources and all of them stated that the two words have identical meaning. A quick search of "equivoque" in Ask Alexander also highlights that the word has been in common usage in magical literature since the late 19th century (even earlier if you count its appearance in early French manuscripts). There are also many more matches for "equivoque" than there are for "equivocation" (75 compared to 423).
Now, Ron might believe that "equivocation" is a better term for the technique, and he may be right, but both words are acceptable. To suggest using "equivoque" is incorrect is wrong and actually counter to Ron's argument for using the former. |
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R.E. Byrnes Inner circle 1206 Posts
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Equivocation is something entirely different: a vascillation resulting either from confusion, a desire to deceive, or indifference among two or more different options. Equivoque clearly refers to an extended, more complex version of "magician's choice." I don't really follow the point the Bauer quote is purporting to make, though it seems grounded in the idea that language is some fixed, immutable thing. In fact, it evolves constantly, and through usage that, in the earliest stages of a particular evolution, is in fact individual people acting on a preference that's contrary to prior usage. Obviously, one person alone doesn't change how a word is defined or used. But when a definition or usage becomes sufficiently broad and, most important, generally understood, it either supplants or or is added to any pre-existing definitions or uses. There is no canonical "the dictionary" that infallibly dictates universal, permanent definitions. Good dictionaries track how language evolves, and frequently not all good dictionaries are in perfect agreement, particularly as to newer definitions and uses. Equivoque is sufficiently different from equivocation to justify it being a separate word. There isn't one right way to pronounce it - though that doesn't mean it's OK to pronounce it any way you please, either. There are two pronunciations, each with a well-reasoned set of arguments for one pronunciation rather than the other. When someone in magic says 'equivoque,' either way, any reasonably informed person knows what is being talked about.
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pedro95 New user 37 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 16, 2015, martyjacobs wrote: I am sorry but I partially disagree with your definition of the french word. Equivoque, in french, has several definitions : one is the one you give (expression with double meaning), but one of the others can be the one you say is used by magicians : a situation, action or fact that can be judged several ways. One's look can be "équivoque", just like one's attitude, gesture and so on. It's synonym in french is "ambigü", which can be translated (of course)by : ambiguous. Isn't "equivocal" used in english ? (I realize my bad english can make my semantic explanation a little bit ridiculous. Please consider that my french is way better than my english... |
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Posted: Sep 15, 2015 11:39 pm 
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