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Lior Inner circle 1961 Posts |
Great job OZ and great job Nimrod and everyone that helped Oz
It's good for the art and it's good for the business.for all of us that work Oz will get now 10 times more for his shows. I must say that I hoped that he will use more darker envelopes and red back bicycle and not blue. Lior
The Lior Touch
https://1amagic.com/ PEA Dave Lederman Award 2009 PEA Dunninger Award 2001 Life Time Achivmeant IUPA 2016 |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I'm very surprised that no one is mentioning the unfavorable and unfortunate way they seem to mix or combine magic and mentalism. It seems that towards the end of the season they were more trying to distinguish Oz as a magician, at least lumping him in with magic and other magicians. They didn't do this with the Regurgitator?
Then last night the whole having Oz do magic "even though I'm a mentalist" (not to mention the magicians "doing mentalism") to me is just way to close, confusing and the type of stuff the clouds the water. I was watching with a big group of people and more than four of them at almost the same time were surprised to shocked that what Oz was doing might've been magic. It burst their whole bubble and perception of what they thought he was and the abilities they though he had. To me this was the most troubling, and throughout, Oz to me, didn't seem to separate himself enough from the other magic on the show. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Yes. I found that blurring of the lines to be disturbing as well.
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Sean Giles Inner circle Cambridge/ UK 3517 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, FoggFactor wrote: the mixing was needed, just not for the reasons you might think. |
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minty Elite user Rugby, Warwickshire 423 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, nimrod wrote: In truth I was offering you congratulations for your work as consultant, Nimrod. I don't know the full extent of your involvement, but I do know how much I personally value my own trusted 'sounding boards'. Congratulations to Oz too, of course. |
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FoggFactor Regular user Texas 189 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, Robb wrote: I agree with your comment on what terms audiences think. I think Oz's presentation was fine. When I approach my own routines and work on script for other mentalists, I have learned that when we give reason as to how the skills are working to reach the end result, our reactions are much stronger. This does mean that we come out and say "I am going to influence you", there are much more subtle ways of doing that. I will also agree with you that I may be overthinking this, but most of the time the performer underthinks their routines and although still good (because the moments are good) they are losing valuable moments. Re: the mixing If the subtlety is so that the called for envelope can be removed from wherever later in the routine, still, this is not needed. Oz very openly mixes the envelopes again while handing them out. Describe the routine: the judges choose names to swear on, Howie mixes the envelopes, the judges sit in chairs, the judges name a number and are handed that envelope...The mixing remains illogical to a spectator. Yes, I understand why the envelopes had to be mixed. However, I don't applaud this creative solution by Oz because it doesn't make sense. Ok. I am done talking about the *** mixing! ---- New question. And this may not be the appropriate for penny, so please ignore if needed. Why didn't Oz have the clips on the chair to begin with? From my understanding of the original Kurtz method, the workers coming out and clipping the string to the sheets could had been done before the routine began. This was another weird quirk that stood out to me during the routine. And finally, I have taken plenty of notes on Oz and the great things he has done on AGT. I am not hating on Oz. Simply using his performance to learn from. Thanks for such a great discussion! - Frank |
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Nikodini Regular user 195 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: You guys have nailed it. That was the biggest issue with his routine. While the method was pedestrian and even a beginner mentalist would immediately figure it out, lay audiences were baffled by it for sure. Staging was pretty good however and I liked it. The reason why he didn't succeed is because there was nothing mysterious about him. His whole persona was screaming "car salesman" instead of "mystery performer". He failed to connect to audience's expectations about his supposed powers. He would have done better as a magician instead of a mentalist. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, Robb wrote: Whether an audience consciously thinks about it or not, internal consistency is nonetheless very important. Particularly when people are thinking about or discussing the act afterwards. It's like when someonne claims to be a body language expert and then does a prediction effect followed by a classic mind reading effect. The effects don't fit the premise, thus believability is stretched and, very often, lost. Remember- Art consists of attention to details. |
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nimrod Special user 881 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, Nikodini wrote: I guess we have different ideas of what success is. Beating dozens of thousands of competitors (and all the mentalists and magicians among them) and reaching the finals and winning third place in the biggest talent show in America is kind of success as I see it. But maybe your standards are higher. It's important to analyze the pros and cons of a routine/performer but some humility in the process won't hurt. Here and in general. Nimrod , Israel |
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Daeld New user So far, I have about 84 Posts |
I remember the first time I watched a regurgitate as a child. I loved the premise. And I recall the bitter disappointment when I began to study magic and mentalism and I subsequently caught a "move" and a flash. Being in Australia I didn't get all of AGT but if Oz let himself be thought of as a magician it was a huge mistake.
Still surprised the ventriloquist won. I was going for Oz all the way. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
For me, the premise of a mentalist and getting some information off slightly just wouldn't work on a show like this...it would be classed as a 'fail' to the majority of its audience, and they wouldn't quite understand it...
I've asked to be banned
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, IAIN wrote: And yet alleged psychics do just this all the time, and are generally accepted as being genuine. Something to think about . . .
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I think the problem might be that AGT, in the end, is perceived as a talent show- the 21st Century equivalent of Ted Mack's Original Amateur Hour back in the 1950s and 60s. It's extremely difficult to present believable mentalism when you're sharing the stage with singers, comedians, magicians, dancers, animal acts, etc., all portrayed, often with heart-wringing or down-home back stories, as regular folks just looking for a big break in show business.
In that context, even a Dunninger or Derren Brown, would have very hard time convincing anyone that he was anything but another magician/contestant competing for a shot at a million dollars and a Vegas show. In that very difficult framework, Oz did remarkably well and I congratulate him. |
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10794 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, nimrod wrote: I appreciate your comments and insights - I thought Oz did a fantastic job and it was a very entertaining routine! The visuals with the colored chairs was far better than most chair tests. Great job to all who helped to put this together and especially to Oz - who's performance rates (deservedly) are probably now going to go through the roof.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10794 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Before Ted Mack I believe it was preceded by Major Bowes comedy hour. My grandfather performed on that show in the day, and these kinds of shows have a long tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Bowes_Amateur_Hour
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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Robb Inner circle 1291 Posts |
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On Sep 17, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: Yes, very true, Bob. I guess I was referring to the fact that Oz didn't explicitly state what "power" he was demonstrating. And no, I didn't particularly get the sense that he was even connected to that "power" in his own mind, yet, can't deny the routine worked in a commercial if not artistic sense. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On Sep 18, 2015, saysold1 wrote: Small world. My dad also appeared on Major Bowes' Amateur Hour when it was on radio. (Played the fiddle.) Later he competed on television on Arthur Godfrey's Talent Scouts. Years later, of course, there was Ed McMahon's Star Search. |
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10794 Posts |
Like many (well me at least) - Oz segued into the Mentalism side from a lifetime interest in magic.
However the theatricality and training in the mind reading side are such a massive part of creating a persona - that is why Derren made that leap so nicely. Oz's continued success may make him even less prone to want to block off precious time for a gathering of like minded performers at Mindvention, a Stetson or McBride training situation, or just hanging at the bar with a bunch of blokes shooting the breeze about effects. My hope is that after this success Oz considers plugging in a little more as it could take his career and persona/believability to higher levels. His energy and skills are fantastic.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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tricksters New user 3 Posts |
The one thing missing from this routine was Oz... The first two effect he performed are amazing! He is truly a great performer. But I felt the last two didn't have the depth that the other effects he started with had. You can tell the jokes are audience tested! But in the last two effects it shows they were new and untried.
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mtgoldstein Veteran user Houston, TX 325 Posts |
Interesting to read the thought processes of everyone here. It's a lesson in showmanship, structure, and thought just to read. Theatrically the chair reveal was the climax and should have been. Anything after emotionally reduced the effect.
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