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The Hermit Veteran user 301 Posts |
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On Sep 24, 2015, R.S. wrote: Interesting takedown. However, Accupuncture is being taken seriously by the medical community. There are several new theories on why it works according to western medicine. As to the idea that the body is self healing, that is the basis for Accupuncture. It's goal is to help the body self heal. As to the idea that the alternative medicines don't change - wrong. It has changed as other cultures adopted it and integrated it into their healing modalities. Accupuncture was only really available to the west starting in the 70's. There is much to explore and integrate and we haven't had time to do it. Modern medicine is taking Accupuncture seriously and it's adoption by western doctors increases. To say that alternative medicine is resistant to change vs western is just wrong. Let's remember that germ theory was around a long time before medicine adopted it. Many large breakthroughs have occurred because an individual bucked the system. Many of the herbs used by shamans are now in our drugs. To dismiss it all is kind of simplistic |
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irossall Special user Snohomish, Washington 529 Posts |
Acupuncture is covered by my Insurance. Seems if it was totally useless the insurance company would not pay.
Aloe Vera is the best thing I know for taking care of a Brown Recluse spider bite. -Iven
Give the gift of Life, Be an Organ Donor.
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, landmark wrote: Landmark, I agree with you that the placebo response is real. I never said the placebo response is nothing. Nor did I infer that we should dismiss it. I also agree that we should explore it. But as I said, EVERY treatment elicits a placebo response. So if you want to know if a particular treatment is effective above and beyond the placebo response, what would you do?? You would conduct a (ideally large) randomized blinded placebo controlled clinical trial! Maybe several of these studies. And in these studies, time and time again, alternative medicines fail to show a benefit beyond the placebo response. And as the video I posted explains, if Acupuncture is the inserting of needles into specific locations in order to treat/heal, that didn't work. The sham acupuncture study got the same results when no needles were used. So it didn't matter if or where needles were used! That's not "acupuncture". To be clear, I'm not saying that nothing happened to the patients - they likely did experience a positive placebo response (as expected of any treatment). But it certainly wasn't (couldn't have been) the inserting of needles that did it! Moreover, and on a more fundamental level, let's talk about the plausibility of acupuncture and the "energy" modality alternative medicines. Do you believe there are 12 "meridians" in the human body with "chi" flowing through them? Do you believe in "chi"? "Chakras"? "Universal Life energy"? These are core fundamental claims of many alternative modalities, yet nobody has ever seen or measured or detected "meridians" or "chakras" or "chi" or "universal life energy". Our modern instruments are sensitive enough to measure the faint afterglow of the Big Bang (the cosmic microwave background radiation), and the signal emitted by the equivalent of a 4 watt light bulb by the Voyager spacecraft from 4 BILLION miles away. We can peer inside ourselves with X Rays, yet there is not the slightest empirical evidence of the energies/chakras claimed by Alt Med practitioners. And lastly, I agree that you are indeed a generally pretty rationally-minded person! Thanks, Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: Hi Stone! It's not true that I believe that "a lack of scientific evidence automatically disproves something". That is not my position at all. But at the same time I recognize that if something is real - if it really works and manifests in some way - then it can be shown and proven through science. So the burden is always on the Alt Meds to prove their claims - not on science to disprove them. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote: Agree, Danny. But you can see how eschewing proven (traditional) treatments for serious conditions in favor of something that's no better than placebo can potentially be harmful, right? Back to my longtime professional Reiki practicing niece (remember, she claimed to have successfully treated an MS patient). She has a history of (relatively minor) heart problems - occasional racing of her heart etc., but last year after a worrisome episode she was concerned enough to go to a conventional heart specialist and undergo (successful) surgery to correct the problem. I find it ironic that she didn't go to her Reiki master for treatment. Nor did she treat herself. Seems that when one's health is really on the line, deep down even the Alt Med practitioners themselves seek proven treatments. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Thanks, RS.
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But as I said, EVERY treatment elicits a placebo response. I'm not so sure of that. The placebo effect has a lot to do with context and belief. A disguised sugar pill given to me by a magician could well have a different effect on me from one given to me by The Pope.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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imgic Inner circle Moved back to Midwest to see 1339 Posts |
Our family doctor uses Reiki, but never for treatment/ She'll use it for informal diagnosis, but will always order traditional medical tests to confirm.
My wife had been battle a series of tendon, joint, and inflammation issues over the last few years. Our doctor has used Reiki to get a sense of where the inflammation is, but always orders the blood tests to confirm, along with ultrasound or CT scans. We feel fortunate to have such a combination of open mindedness along with practicality. She'll be the first to prescribe antibiotics when needed, instead of herbal supplements. But she'll also discuss how your diet, fitness, and lifestyle impacts your health. A very holistic approach.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, irossall wrote: You're giving too much credit to the critical thinking skills of insurance companies. How many people do you know that a) have gotten bitten by Brown Recluse spiders and b) have treated it with Aloe Vera?? If you're seeing this enough to make a judgment about various Brown Recluse spider treatments, you need to move to a location free of Brown Recluse spiders! Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, imgic wrote: How does Reiki "give a sense of where the inflammation is"? It can't because there is no empirical evidence whatsoever of "universal life energy". Moreover, how does your wife NOT know where her own joint pain is coming from? It's not much of a stretch that your doctor could ascertain the general vicinity of the inflammation. The rest is all smoke and mirrors with, in this case, blood tests and CT scans to fall back on. Throw in a little placebo and voila... the illusion that Reiki actually does something! Embracing Reiki is not "open mindedness" - especially for a doctor who should know better. It shows a lack of critical thinking and perhaps an ignorance of the studies that have shown it to be ineffective. Aside from the studies, it's simply not very plausible that a man in Japan in the 1920s "discovered" the ability to heal by channeling an unknown and still undetected "universal life energy", and without scientifically testing his theory, passed on this "ability" to students throughout the years in "attunement" rituals. Sounds quite cultish in fact. As far as diet, fitness, and lifestyle, those are obviously things that contribute to one's well being and should be taken into consideration by all doctors. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Levi Bennett Inner circle 1778 Posts |
Interesting that this came up. We have some experience with this in our house. Supplements, that actually work.
Recently my son's pit bull pup- she's about a year old- started getting tumors. She had a huge one on the inside of her right ear. My wife has been swearing by Turmeric lately, claiming it reduces cholesterol and shrinks tumors. It's also a blood thinner so if you supplement with it you have to start out with small amounts and increase gradually or you can start bleeding. But anyway, they started giving turmeric to the dog hoping it might help her tumors. This tumor on her ear was huge; about as big as my thumb from the first joint. Within about 2 weeks it has completely disappeared, as well as the other tumors she had- one on her side and several small ones on her forehead. Turmeric shrinks tumors, growths and other fatty deposits in the body. It is actually a miracle cancer drug as well, and I say this as a skeptic. But for whatever reason, it's not as popular as using radiation to fight cancer. There are other supplements we use to good effect also, but let me just say this: the placebo effect wouldn't work on a dog. I believe Turmeric is an actual supplement with great value for certain ailments and conditions. The reason we knew about Turmeric was my wife was ailing from something and found out that it might be gallstones. Maybe it was kidney stones? I forget at the moment, but one of those. I'll ask her and get back to you. She read about the Turmeric dissolving these and began supplementation and within days experienced relief and was completely fine a few days later. And she is a skeptic herself, she just reads up on what might help certain ailments that pop up in our lives and maybe we give them a try. Sometimes they work and work well.
Performing magic unprofessionally since 2008!
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, R.S. wrote: I am not a fan of false hope. Yes I agree with your point. I am personally am appalled by the things people claim hypnosis does. People come to me after shows and ask for things only an actual doctor MD. who has been to real me school can prescribe real medicine should be asked. That is always where I recommend they go. Not a fan of offering false hope to those at their most vulnerable.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
Thanks Theodore. The question we always need to ask for any treatment is, "what do the most rigorous randomized controlled clinical studies show"? There will likely always be supportive anecdotal stories for any treatment, but that's not good data at all. For well known reasons of human bias, self-deception, faulty memories, etc., we simply can't rely on anecdotal evidence. Indeed, that's the whole purpose of these scientifically designed clinical studies. And guess what? The treatments that DO work always pass the scientific studies! When you think about it, how could they not? Anyway, I'm not opposed to trying something - after all, I think it's reasonable to say that there are still many great medical discoveries to be made in the years to come. There always are advancements. But, every one of those great discoveries-to-be will undoubtedly succeed in clinical tests.
PS - It turns out that it's not out of the question for animals to experience some sort of placebo effect... https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-......animals/ Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, landmark wrote: Good point landmark. But we're talking here in the context of medical interventions - not magic shows or something else. I think it's safe to say that where there is expectation of a medical intervention, the placebo response is present. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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imgic Inner circle Moved back to Midwest to see 1339 Posts |
Ron...
There are more things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of in your philosophy...
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, R.S. wrote: Insurance companies exist for the sole purpose of rewarding stockholders and executives. If they offer something that clients are willing to pay for, it's mission accomplished. Don't ever make the mistake that the insurance company has your best interests at heart. They are after your premiums and they'll pay whatever they can afford to keep the premiums coming in.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, Theodore Lawton wrote: Are you sure it wasn't just a placebo effect with your dog? |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, R.S. wrote: Yeah, I kinda thought maybe I was overstating your position. My apologies. Still, I remain nearly as distrustful of the medical establishment as I do the quacks. One need look no further than The China Study by T. Colin Campbell to see how difficult it is to replace medical dogma with firmly established, scientific evidence for something that lies outside of the interests of pharmaceutical companies and other established financial interests (in this case, the meat and dairy industries). The gigantically expensive medical community, like any other bureaucracy is self-interested. The economic machinery of what is supposed to be "good health" is biased toward its self-preservation. Anyone working at a university (like myself) knows the nature of the relationship between self interest, research funding, and "science". Science is, as I pointed out above, not always humble. Neither is it usually unbiased and purely lacking in self interest. Science, unfortunately, is performed by scientists--who are human beings with all sorts of flaws. They are not pure and virginal. They are ambitious, and they prostitute themselves to governments and multi-national conglomerates. Not all of them, of course. But who knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts |
An interesting analogy, stoney. A scientific approach to proper "sorting" might count chaff parts amongst the grains to determine an acceptable contamination level -- or brains in the chaff as acceptable waste.
A mechanic approach would be concerned about efficiency of the sorting within acceptable parameters and still be considered scientific. Scientific health studies might be concerned of the advantages or not of chaff residue in with the grain. Even different grains as medicine might be scientifically studied. Yet, none of these address a functional reality of what "wheat and chaff" represent -- at least long ago. The wheat stalks were beat with sticks to loosen the grains, then piled in a basket and the wheat bounced in the air. What flew away was chaff and what remained was grain. The actual mix of pure kernels and leaf was not important. Making bread was important. The point is that "scientific study" does not always produce a better result, or more healthful one or a less harmful one "except by definition" In like manner, "medicine" is what cures and not what some "scientist" says it is. Any chemical introduce into our body can have a negative side effect. In this, old "home remedies' may be no better or worse that laboratory constructs. Some are certainly less expensive. Certainly, any remedy that seems to have worked over time should be considered by "results" and not by "scientific process" of validation, especially when profit is a motivation. by the way, JFG mayonnaise is great for skin ailments on a dog and has no adverse side effects. No other mayonnaise brand works. The difference is the amount of lemon juice in the formula. No scientist discovered this -- just people looking to solve a problem and talking with each other. Not sold by Vets, though -- and therefore never recommended.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 25, 2015, imgic wrote: Hi imgic, Not sure what you mean by that. And what do you consider to be my "philosophy"?? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 188 Posts |
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On Sep 26, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote: It's all good, Stone... thanks for your input! Really? You're nearly as distrustful of the medical establishment as... quacks?? OK, I guess you're entitled to your opinion. You're right though - scientists are human and therefore are flawed and some can even have questionable motivations. But... that's why the idea of large properly conducted randomized blinded clinical trials is such a great thing! What emerges from these trials should reflect reality and not the whims of any person (be they a skeptic or a proponent of a particular claim). It's really the best model we have for separating the wheat from the chaff. Can you think of a better model for testing claims? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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