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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, kambiz wrote: There's no substance you can put into your body that won't have some sort of effect at some level. So local honey may have a positive effect. There's nothing mysterious or unproven about substances interacting with the human body. Furthermore, by you administering some to your son and "seeing how it goes", you are in effect conducting a (very basic) scientific experiment! Anyway, there is no such thing as "alternative health", or "alternative medicine". If something works, it is just "medicine". Anything flying the banner of "alternative" should immediately be suspect. Science neither demands nor requires "blind faith". Science is not only open to challenges, but using the hypothesize/test/replicate model it constantly incorporates new findings in an effort to present as complete and comprehensive a model of reality as it can. Non-dogmatism is the very essence of science. When it comes to separating fact from fiction, what else besides science can claim such admirable traits? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, R.S. wrote: Performance magic! A magician promises to do something and then does exactly what he says. Truth in action and conguency of promise -- providing fact over fictional alternatives. By illustrating that the fiction can be controlled it gives more credibility to the fact. In the same way, the obvious silliness of suggested "alterantive treatments" can encourge a patient to follow the doctor's advice, no matter how distasteful. As mentioned earlier, doctors often lie to patients to get them to complete a radiology or chemo regiment, and then provide things like message or Reiki to make the experience more enjoyable. In this htye use fiction to support the truth -- and are magicians. They justify the falsehood because they know that the "whole treatment" is necesary -- or because clinical trials would be invalidated if they did not, or because they can charge more for extended visits. Choose one or more. There are always alternatives.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Yea I'm not convinced how many doctors do to much lying to patients in order to get them to take treatments.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Maybe in the 1950s or something, but not now. If they lied about intentions they'd be open to lawsuits.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
A special joke just for Danny. (I know he likes my jokes)
What happens to the Doctor when the patient dies? He gets paid. Now to be serious for a minute, and like I said, ‘Science is good, Math is better.’ And you can laugh at that if you want but numbers don’t lie. Only people do that. When you see the numbers it’s not so funny. Fact is, Medical care is the 3rd leading cause of death in America. THIRD, behind Heart problems and Cancer. Over 4,000 died from medical treatment last week. Yes LAST WEEK. According to several research studies in the last decade, a total of 225,000 Americans per year have died as a result of their medical treatments. Let me break that down for you according to one report, but keep in mind every time a new study comes out the numbers are higher. 12,000 unnecessary surgery 7,000 medication errors in hospitals 20,000 other errors in hospitals 80,000 infections in hospitals 106,000 negative effects of drugs So asking around about medical treatments instead of just ‘trusting science’ may not be as bad as it sounds. Still with all that said, yes I do appreciate the hard word doctors and hospitals do. I have many nurses and a few doctors in the family and I know firsthand how hard they work. But science is not perfect, it is in a constant change, and humans make mistakes every day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a second opinion or asking your friends how their experience with a condition went. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Again jokes by the uneducated. Lovely.
People make numbers lie all the time. The number of people who died last week is not relevant. HOW MANY WERE SAVED vs how many died Tom? THAT is the relevant figure isn't it? How many would have died had they NOT had medical treatment. You are using numbers to tell lies and it makes you look less than honest. How many have died because they were arrogant enough to think they knew better than doctors? How many died for lack of treatment because they didn't get the right treatment because they used "alternative medicine"? What over all percentage to the numbers you put up (But don't verify for us by showing us the actual study.) represent of those who seek medical treatment? Using numbers to lie... the last place to hide when you have absolutely no point. 20% of motor crashes are caused by drunk drivers. Which obviously means the other 80% are caused by SOBER drivers! OBVIOUSLY it is the sober drivers who are the real problem!! Telling lies with statistics is just as shameful as without them Tom. And don't move the goal posts Tom. YOU said to ask friends about TREATMENTS, not asking around about the doctors themselves. But if you want to let your health care be taken care of by 7 people who have not been to medical school (But do tell stupid jokes out of jealousy.) that is entirely up to you. Just don't think we are stupid enough to fall for the lies via statistics tactic.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Danny, that’s like saying just don’t worry about cancer or heart problems because look at all those that don’t have it.
Is that what you saying? And please tell me what is so wrong with asking a few people how their treatment went? Or how they like a certain doctor? Do you just assume all doctors are the same? It sounds like it. I have no idea what you keep rambling about, other than trying to discredit everything I say. Please stop. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
What you say itself is enough.
You said math was BETTER than science. (Which in and of itself is fairly silly.) Where did I say "just don’t worry about cancer or heart problems because look at all those that don’t have it." Where did I say anything even REMOTELY CLOSE to that Tom? Where did I say it was bad to ask about how people's treatments went or if they liked a certain doctor? YOU MADE THAT UP! Again proving beyond a shadow of a doubt you have no point. Did I even hint that all doctors are the same? With the exception of graduating medical school and doing all necessary to be called DOCTOR it does not sound like I REMOTELY SAID ANYTHING like what you claim I do. That is a reading comprehension problem you might want to get looked at. I AM saying that if your neighbors or friends have NOT been to medical school, I don't care HOW many you ask a doctor might be a better option. Seems as if you are the one who won't stop rambling. It is not only I who am telling you this stuff. Randwill, Ron and so forth are also, but you want to personalize it as if it is only me. Sorry. But you are wrong it is not only me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
When my wife was going through cancer treatment a couple of years ago she was given all sorts of gloomy prognosis about her future if she did not complete treatment. She was frightened and still has "cancer head" though fully recovered. She compared notes with other parients and ask her doctor. He admitted that they deliberately overstate the dangers and risks "to trick" patients into following the proscribed statment. I was there.
Not the 50's -- today! Now, she only has trauma from the lies she was told about results that could never happen to her. She is alive with nightmares. She would have followed the treatment regiment with my help -- but was punished because others do not trust doctors enough. Whay kind of "science" bases its actions on what "some patients do?" Yup, "people make figures lie" -- even doctors and scientists. She loved her doctors, though, and would recommend them to others. I am sure their "success rate" helps also Maybe the best treatment is to create fear based on mangled statistics and lies. Just don't pretend that it doesn't happen or is scientific.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
All this being said doctors are not infallible. Getting second opinions (NOT from just random friends mind you.) is always a good practice. Sometimes they are looking at one thing one way and are too close to see alternatives. They are HUMAN BEINGS and do make mistakes.
But fact is that once "alternative medicine" has proven it can withstand scientific scrutiny, it is then called "MEDICINE". (At which point you should immediately ask 7 friends who are NOT doctors what they think of it.) Medicine is not perfect. But the way in which doctors, and scientists, and such are moving forward is really the best way. Test, evaluate, test, evaluate and never stop. They often find things with medicine that they thought worked, that turns out don't work. BUT that is the process.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, funsway wrote: IF you have a doctor who not only overstates the risks in order to "trick" patients to do anything, AND he was supposedly dumb enough to admit it to you then you have on heck of a law suit.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Why sue? Three different doctors collaborated to save her life -- with me playing a small part.
They did what they thought best and the results grand! My point was that the method was neither scientific or based on clincal trials. Now the mystery is the capital "IF" Why do you persist in questioning the validity of what I say. Why not accept it unless you have evidence otherwise? Why pass judgement on others at all? Is the real world just too incredible for you to bear? or are you attempting to be the "alternative treatment" to reasoned discourse? Just rhetorical questions. Methinks you just like to play games.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, funsway wrote: Cute. Quote:
And alternative practitioners exploit this (knowingly or unknowingly) to capitalize on the fact of placebo. Quote:
In the same way, the obvious silliness of suggested "alterantive treatments" can encourge a patient to follow the doctor's advice, no matter how distasteful. "Often lie"?? The "fiction" in this case being that Reiki does anything beyond placebo. Quote:
They justify the falsehood because they know that the "whole treatment" is necesary -- or because clinical trials would be invalidated if they did not, or because they can charge more for extended visits. Choose one or more. There are always alternatives. The only thing that can invalidate a past clinical trial result would be a new clinical trial - not doctors following a treatment regimen!! And "charging more for extended visits" is an ethics question - it has no bearing on the truth claims of specific treatments. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, TomBoleware wrote: And how is that different from alternative practitioners? Quote:
Now to be serious for a minute, and like I said, ‘Science is good, Math is better.’ And you can laugh at that But if you ask the right questions in the right way, you're essentially applying skepticism (a good thing), which then leads to more robust and structured ways of deriving answers to those questions, which leads to scientifically based clinical studies! It all comes back to science being the best way to separate fact from fiction and get answers to those initial questions! Anyway, let's think about some more statistics: ~Typhoid Fever ~Tetanus ~Polio ~Pneumococcal Disease ~Pertussis ~Measles ~Malaria ~Invasive H. Flu ~Diptheria ~Chicken Pox ~Small Pox I'll let you do the homework and compute how many people these diseases have killed/crippled worldwide. Interestingly, no alternative medical practice successfully treats any of them. More interestingly, science has developed vaccines for each and every one of these diseases! Quote:
Still with all that said, yes I do appreciate the hard word doctors and hospitals do. I have many nurses and a few I already mentioned the fact that science can and does change, as it updates and revises it's body of knowledge. How is that not a good thing? And sure humans make mistakes. Alternative medical practitioners are humans too, right? That being said, it's hard to screw up when you're not really doing much of anything. Certainly Reiki, Touch Therapy, and Homeopathy are harmless in and of themselves, because they don't do anything physical (except for maybe Homeopathy which basically just involves drinking nothing more than water). Acupuncture and Chiropractic do offer some risks, because there is an actual intervention taking place. With acupuncture you are piercing the skin with needles to various depths. With sterile needles, and with a minimal insertion, that's not all that risky. Still, acupuncture infections and deaths are recorded around the world every year. Chiropractic adjustments certainly carry a risk. Do you want someone messing with your spine because a grocer/"magnet" healer in 1895 thought he found the cure for all disease when he (so he claims) cured a man of his deafness by adjusting the man's spine (despite the fact there are no nerve connections from the spine to the ear)?? I don't. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, funsway wrote: Just so we understand, your wife is alive today because she completed conventional medical treatment (regardless of how she was coerced into the treatment)? I would rather be alive with nightmares from conventional treatment than dead from ineffective "alternative" treatment. Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Ron I completely agree that modern medicine is a good thing. It’s just sad that an industry
whose job is to help people ends up so high on the killer list. Seems to me like science still has a long way to go. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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R.S. Regular user CT one day I'll have 184 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, TomBoleware wrote: And where does it rate on the "saved lives" list? Quote:
Seems to me like science still has a long way to go. And how far does the alternative to science have to go? Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
That is the most ridiculous thing ever. OF COURSE it is high on the list. SICK PEOPLE tend to die more than healthy people. How many of those would have died from something else? How many more would have died had they used the neighbors poll diagnosis techniques? How many were saved? What is the overall percentage those numbers represent? They are meaningless without more information which ol Tom doesn't want to bother with. Better to lie with numbers to prove a point.
Guess what? Lots of peiple die in hospital emergency rooms! Also in hospitals in heneral. Lots die in nnursing homes. Also Florida and Arizona. Try being intellectually honest. Yes science has a long way to go. But unlike the vaunted neighbor polling method of medical treatment it has a built-in way to move forward. It is called the scientific method. Look it up.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Ron, saving millions has nothing to do with it still being the 3rd leading cause of death in America. That is too high.
I haven’t said a word about an alternative to science. I’ve been told over and over by others here that science was not about math, yet here you are telling me to do the math. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Oct 10, 2015, R.S. wrote: so would most people -- which is why it works. I never said she considered any alternative treatments. but the doctors provided treatments other than the standard regiment -- using techniques argued here as "alternative medicine" such a Reiki. If these wonderful doctors see a value in combining such treatments with the "clinically tested" ones, why should they be claimed to be "ineffective?" All of my posts have been along the "in addition to" rather then "instead of" theme, plus the right of the patient to make choices. These techniques can be effective in keeping the patient interested in staying alive. A technique cannot be ruled as "ineffective" just because it has never been clinically tested. People die while being part of clinical trial. That does mean they toss out the study. People live even though they get the placebo. That doesn't mean the medicine is no good.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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