Https://youtu.be/TD_jrooHdUg

I was bouncing around the Tube, watching some wonderful routines when I came upon this gem.
I can answer some of my own questions with a little common sense, but is there anyone out there who's willing to help me find which way to go, so I can get pointed in the right direction for this kind of magic???

Cheers,
Race Blakhart

Sorry Race!

He may be a nice young fella, (HERE COMES THE >>>BUT<<<:::) BUT, that was one of the poorest DEMONSTRATIONS (not a PERFORMANCE) of THAT C&R method, that I have EVER seen. --And, I "go back" to Ralph W. Hull's "FIFTEEN MINUTES WITH A PIECE OF ROPE" (early '40s).

I'll try to come back and give you a detailed critique, later.

First, I'm not "up" on all these YOU TUBE" expose videos! I don't have the time to waste!

What you saw on the "clip" was a young man exposing the EDWARD VICTOR (sometimes called the DOC ERVIN) method of the C&R Rope. I'm quite sure that you'll find it in the "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF ROPE TRICKS" (publ. ABBOTT'S). The Victor method has been "around" since "forever".

IMHO the method is flawed because of bad timing, and incorrect pointing. (You can't hide the move by "speed".) The spectator may not know what you did, BUT, he will know that you did "something". Leon Maguire, back in '45, wrote up his technique for doing the necessary "trip loop". Leon had "changed the moment", and, made the Victor method practical.

Not only did the young man not know the Maguire technique, he also did not use the Dr. Daley KNOT! UNITING two pieces of rope with an OVERHAND KNOT is IMPOSSIBLE, and the young man also did a very "contrived", and sloppy job of tying the overhand knot.

"Sliding" the overhand knotted piece of the rope off to "restore" the cut rope is, IMO, NOT good magic. Granted that it was not a tutorial for performing the C&R, but, merely an EXPOSE OF THE VICTOR METHOD.

In a "green room session" at the MAES convention (in 1954)JACK CHANIN tipped to me, his technique for disposing of the "knot". I've used it since. I've published it in my book along with the Daley Knot which I "picked up" in the '50s from a pal (Keith Lingley). I've not seen CHANIN'S technique in print. I haven't seen DALEY'S knot in print either, although both MAY be.

There have been many C&R methods published since Victor. Fitakee wrote a booklet, "The ONLY SIX WAYS TO RESTORE A ROPE" in, I think, the mid '40s. Many variations of the basic methods in Fitzkee's booklet have been published. --PROBABLY, the "flashiest" is the "so called" BILL NEFF C&R. (Will Lindhorst sold the "Vanishing Bird Cage C&R in the early '40s--possibly the '30s. Harold Denhard performed the C&R using the technique about that same period, ((I KNEW both Lindhorst and Denhard).

The first known method was in Scot's "DISCOVERY OF WITCHCRAFT" (500 +/- years ago).. The first time that I can remember seeing the Doc Tarbell method was in '46, Stuart Ross, my first mentor, did it in his school show. It was a "miracle", but, it required meticulous set up. Victor's method was totally impromptu, but, Maguire's technique is/was needed to "fix" it.

Hope this helps!!

Race...PM me, if you need more info.

I should have mentioned U.F. "Gen" Grant's "Perfection" C&R. I've always called it Grant's 50/50 C&R. My young (then) friend, Doug Henning did Grant's 50/50 on his first TV Special in the mid 70s. It KILLED!

Grant also published and sold methods that used an extra short piece, of which the spectator was unaware. I THINK that George Sands may have gotten that concept from Grant, when George developed his RopeSational routine.

Rope has become rather expensive for the average guy. POP HAYDN'S "MONGOLIAN POP KNOT uses a "lot" of rope, but, the EFFECT he achieves is WORTH IT! I developed a C&R and PN which also involved a Karl Germaine technique back in the early '70s. Like Pop's, it was very effective (especially in high schools!) I used it for almost 10 years, and finally dropped it, when rope prices went UP. BTW, I think that if I were to start doing it again, I would use POP'S MONGOLIAN. I think it's a bit better than what I had developed. (I had even made a rope swapping deal with Frances Marshall and, later, Recil Bordner!)

All of this reminds me of AL BAKER'S line in one of hie "letters to Harold): "Wouldn't it be awful for a magician to be locked in a room with a thousand feet of nice white rope, and NO SCISSORS?!"

Wow, these YOU TUBE links can be tricky! I read Disk's description and had, in my mind's eye, a pretty good picture of exactly what he was talking about --- then I clicked on the link and found Christopher The Conjurer doing a routine based on the work of George Sands, and later popularized by Francis Tabary, without any sign, as far as I could see, of the Edward Victor method. It's not unusual to find that the target of a link has been changed, but this seems to have changed, and then been changed back.

I really enjoyed your comments, Dick! They brought back lots of memories. For quite a while I thought that I had "invented" the Dr. Daley Knot; I had searched for any refeence to tying the knot that way, and was unable to find anything. Then, in 2006, Dick Stoner told me I had independently invented the Dr. Daley Knot.

Race, if you and I watched the same video, you might want to look for Sands' Sandsational Rope Routine or the Tabary videos. As I recall, Dayrl does some simialr stuff on one of his rope videos.

Murf

Thank you both for your posts! I PM's Dick, just so it is known, I did thank him greatly for such wonderful information!

I know next to nithing about rope work, so even though I could spot a lot of his moves in the video, I wasn't 100% sure what it was I was spotting.

I know I have the hands for this, and can't wait to get started practicing.

Hi murf!

After reading you post, I scrolled back to the top, and GUESS WHAT?! There are four separate rope tricks, one after the other. with a commercial in between each.

One is the young teenager doing the expose and lousy demo of the Victor.

Two is a guy in a blue double breasted suit, doing a poor demonstration (again, not a performance!) of George Sand's routine. His prop table with scissors is off camera and he has to lean partly out of the frame each time he wants the scissors. He finishes with a silk penetration through a knot, holding an end of the rope in his teeth. (Awkward) He did an awkward "two shoulder" twirl of the silk to get it into a half-a** twirled condition.An awkward tying of the knot followed, and then the silk was snapped into the air and caught. YUK. His delivery of lines was mumbled, and pretty much "descriptive patter".

Three is a guy exposing Bob Carver's Nightmare. He shows how to get the appropriate lengths for the three ropes, and demonstrates (not performs) the "effect". His count is absolutely awful,and the trick is over. --It doesn't have a finish.

Four is a cockamamie set up to apparently tie one's shoelace.

P.S. Murf...Dick Stoner is a dear friend. We have worked conventions together, etc. I've lectured in his shop.

Oh~! The guy doing the SANDS C&R doesn't know the "Convincer Rope Count" which shows the four ends separate by counting. I learned this from an old SPHINX magazine in the late 30s.It's in my book, along with the Dr. Daley knot and my adaptation of Maguire's improvement of the Victor C&R.

Dick, glad to see you solved the mystery of the vanishing/changing video. I went back to take another look, and the horrors just keep coming --- there must be a dozen or more of those awful videos, one after another! I've never understood what makes people want to make such fools of themselves in public (or anyplace else, for that matter).

Murf

Hahaha Murph, you crack me up! You're totally right on the money though!

Sad to say, murf! There seems to be a "whole bunch" of fools out there~!

That is not a 'reveal' video. that is Richard Sander's 'Fiber Optics'. People in the comment section are discussing whether it is a good performance or not... but if you look up Fiber Optics you will see that is exactly what he is doing. (Sander's does give credit on his DVD for much of the work) I am not sure if the silk at the end is on Fiber Optics, but everything else is, even some of the patter.

Tuklaram:

Refer to my post of 10/11, Number "Two" is a description of a specific rope routine. I called it a "poor demonstration (again, not a performance) of George Sands routine." It looked like George's routine. (I KNEW George.)I did not call it a "reveal"(your word). It was what I called it. It may be a "variation" of Mr. Sander's "Fiber Optics". THAT IS NOT the "issue".

The silk penetration was poorly done, too. I don't care if it's part of Sander's "Fiber Optics or not.

His blocking was poor, His delivery of lines was poor. In general, what he presented was POOR.

Good ol' Dick Oslund breaking it down like a copy of Gray's Anatomy!
Always a pleasure to see!

In reference to your book, is better (or even possible) to purchase from you directly, or should I purchase from the retailer? I'm excited to learn from the Master!

Performance issues aside, as said above the routine is largely coming from Fiber Optics or Fiber Optics extended.
I don't think much, if any, of this is in the Encyclopedia of Rope (nor the new combined book)

John

Much of the magic on the Fiber Optics, including the sliding knot down the rope is Jose de La Torre's routine from his book, Magic of Havana.

http://www.tricksupply.com/product-p/havanatorre.htm

Here is other great items and books from Jose de La Torre.
https://www.mymagic.com/delatorre.htm

Hi Bill!
Thanks for the info, about Jose's book. He worked the Abbott GTG YEARS ago, and did a nice act. I heard, a few years ago that he had had some health problems.

I'm not at all familiar with "FIBER OPTICS".(I've been doing "my" rope routine since "forever", and, being retired, have no plans to change).

Like many concepts (e.g., the sliding knot) over the years, the "first guy" gets forgotten! I first saw JOE OVETTE'S "REPEAT KNOTS" in 1946, when I saw the late ROY SHRIMPLIN'S school assembly program in Marinette Wisconsin. Mr. Shrimplin (I was 14) kindly gave me the "work", and, I've used it ever since. A bit over a year later, I saw the late ROY MAYER do it in his school show. Mr. Mayer (I was now 16)told me that he had gotten a STANDING OVATION in a New Jersey high school with the OVETTE sliding knots! I tell that story in the book.

I learned later that PERCY ABBOTT had been selling the OVETTE "REPEAT KNOTS" secret since the late '30s or early '40s. So, whoever "invented" "FIBER OPTICS", probably "borrowed" OVETTE'S sliding knot concept.

BOB CARVER's NIGHTMARE has been sold as "EQUAL/UNEQUAL ROPES", "MY FAVORITE ROPE TRICK", ETC.! CARVERE got little credit for his idea (which, very likely was a spin off from a HEN FETSCH idea. IIRC, My dear friend, GENE GORDON bought the CARVER idea from a magician who had seen CARVER perform it. GENE was innocent, he thought he was paying the originator!

I never met JOE OVETTE. He died in the mid '40s. but, I've always mentioned his name when discussing his "REPEAT KNOTS". I wrote up my simple routine for it in the book. (I've never gotten a "SO" with it, but, I've gotten lots of laughs (and "some" applause, too, with a hunk of rope!

As always (!) your "search engine mind" has stirred my "wrinkled mind"! Thanks!

Do you remember the late AL BAKER'S "line"??? --"Wouldn't it be frustrating for a magician to be locked in a room with thousands of feet of nice white rope, and, NO SCISSORS!!! ???" hee hee

It would be like writing a bibliography to properly give credit for most effects these days I fear! :p