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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Young Girl Claiming to be the real deal. (22 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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WitchDocChris
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Just a thought to mull over here. Something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

Let's not talk about this particular example, but another which is also often mentioned. The idea of the psychic medium who contacts someone's dead relatives.

Let me also specify, I am not referring to the people who gouge their clients for every cent possible.

So you've got a Medium, and a Sitter. The Sitter has lost someone and has been grieving for a year or so. The grief is effecting their life in a negative way, because they just can't get beyond the pain of the loss and move on. They go to see the Medium, who professes to bring messages across the veil, and tells the Sitter that the deceased one is happy on the other side, and that it's time to move on. The Sitter then begins to genuinely move on, having finally gotten the closure.

We have a few possible scenarios here.

A) The Medium genuinely possesses the ability to communicate with the dead.
B) The Medium genuinely believes they possess that ability, but is in fact committing unconscious fraud.
C) The Medium knows they are using deception.

The end result is clearly good - The Sitter has begun moving on and will suffer less now.

Tell me, is the end result any less good with A, B, or C?

To bring it back to this topic: Yes, this girl is quite possibly a spokesperson for a fraudulent 'mystic school'. However, if that school brings value and community to a group of people - is it really that bad?

A sense of community and a core set of values to follow is the basis for society as a whole. To date there is absolutely no concensus as to what the "correct" set of values is, so we can't say that they are wrong. So even if people are spending tons of money on this - if they feel they are getting their money's worth, is it wrong?

This is why I say these things are not so black and white and why I don't believe that debunkers have the best interest of those they are 'saving' in mind.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
IAIN
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I'd like to offer D) they have friends and family who help the person seek out bereavement therapy...

Ever read ted andrew's book on psychometry?

He is both a shut eye, and a fully qualified bereavement counselor...

Sometimes, even when its well meaning, we can still do more harm than good...

Your a/b/c doesn't also cover that they may also go back repeatedly, and it creates an unhealthy bond...

I do agree that potentially, a placebo could work...
IAIN
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WitchDocChris
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, IAIN wrote:
I'd like to offer D) they have friends and family who help the person seek out bereavement therapy...

Ever read ted andrew's book on psychometry?

He is both a shut eye, and a fully qualified bereavement counselor...

Sometimes, even when its well meaning, we can still do more harm than good...

Your a/b/c doesn't also cover that they may also go back repeatedly, and it creates an unhealthy bond...

I do agree that potentially, a placebo could work...


Your extra option isn't relevant to the example. The options are illustrating that either the Medium is real, or fake. If they are fake, they either know it, or they do not. The option to go elsewhere does not apply to this scenario and an attempt to add it in simply diverts from my point.

Yes, the sitter can form an unhealthy dependence on a psychic. Or on medication. Or on therapy. Or drugs. Or alcohol. Or any number of other things. Again, irrelevant. Show me the data that says that people are statistically more inclined to become dependant on 'psychics' or 'mediums' when other options are present, and then maybe it will have some relevance to my point.

The article you linked is likewise irrelevant. Someone deciding to use alternative methods, no matter how illogical and possibly insane the rest of us think they are, is exercising their right to bodily autonomy. As far as I can tell, she has done her own research and made her own decisions and is not following the advice of a psychic or any other professional, other than whomever wrote the articles and books she's reading.

So again. If you'd like to respond to my points, that would be lovely.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
IAIN
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Ok, in the scenario you describe, I would see it Schrodinger's Psychic Medium...all three possibilities exist...the difference would be the intent behind it...do they (now they've broken the seal so to speak)...

a) encourage her to seek help from a trained professional
b) allow repeat visits so they can communicate with the dead again
c) do b) and also take huge sums of money from them, and keep them coming back forever more

i say that, because by giving this display, don't you think it has now given the person the impression that communication with the dead is now possible - and that concept is real and true... so, personally speaking, if I believed in it - I'd want to go back because I'd have so many more questions to ask...not to test anything, but genuine curiosity...we're not one dimensional are we - we sit back and process an experience and go on from there...its not a black and white experience...its not an equation...

human beings do weird stuff to themselves as well as others...

the link I posted referred to the comment made earlier by someone else...and it is relevant to this conversation - as its about how people in desperate times will turn to anything, let alone already have such beliefs in place which leave them open to all kinds of disastrous consequences...
mindpunisher
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What exactly is a placebo? Nobody really knows. However the body and mind can make physical changes and heal itself when the conditions are right. In fact medicine never healed anything its a catalyst that allows the mind and body to heal itself. Placebo is such an inadequate term. What do you mean by a placebo Iain? Are you some kind of expert in this area? "science" has no real clue what it is anymore than they know what consciousness is.

You talk about..."Sometimes though, don't you think its healthy to enable people to rethink certain idea(l)s?"What makes you qualified to help someone rethink an idea? I know lots of people who believe in psychics. I give them my opinion in that I don't believe but its up to them. People can believe what they want.


Thinking the wrong thoughts over and over driven by unresolved emotional events in the past can cause physical illness. There is clinical research that showed a series of breast cancer sufferers all had an emotional trauma five to 10 years before the symptoms of cancer. Many of them had lost a loved one and still hadn't resolved the emotion. Others had a series of major incidents in their lives that led to them carrying this emotional baggage and the thoughts driven by it on a daily basis. So a more holistic approach can prevent a lot of people from not only moving on with their life but also remaining healthy. Longterm medication and counseling for a lot of people is a bad choice and only entrenches them in the problem..

Some people will get comfort from seeing a psychic -- some people may get addicted.. At the end of the day its their choice. Its not our place to judge what is "right" for them. If you were to choose Heroine as a good lifestyle choice it would be your choice. I found a that a lot of people who believe in psychics already know about mentalism and the "tricks" associated with it but don't care anyway..
seadog93
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Cool, maybe this can give us some insight into the Fox sisters performance. I don't recall off the top of my head, are we talking about similar age ranges here?
Is this the same Nithyananda who is the brother of Gurumayi and was auto one point the co-guru of SYDA?

I saw what I personally considered some performance flaws, but it was certainly eye opening (!) to see the reception of this demonstration.

EDIT:
I know there are some polarized views on the subject but, at the risk of things going downhill, I will share what I found the most interesting part of the website attached to Swami Nithyananda's course. There is a page that you can request for swamiji to bless you that you will receive enough money to attend:
http://innerawakening.org/intention/
complete with testimonials:
http://innerawakening.org/intention/how-i-got-the-money/
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
IAIN
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
What do you mean by a placebo Iain? Are you some kind of expert in this area?

Placebo - giving them a sugar pill, in this instance, tell them what they need to hear during a realistic/believable scenario/set-up.

Am I an expert in this area? no, never said I was. What happens next? the world explodes?

Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
You talk about..."Sometimes though, don't you think its healthy to enable people to rethink certain idea(l)s?"What makes you qualified to help someone rethink an idea? I know lots of people who believe in psychics. I give them my opinion in that I don't believe but its up to them. People can believe what they want.


What makes me qualified? Nothing. Last time I checked, this is a forum, and forums are for discussions. This is mine. Of course people can believe what they want. They can believe that its safe to store wine in lead pots if they want to. That would certainly not cause any kind of harm would it! People believe in what they want, until they get a negative reaction from it and it no longer re-inforces their beliefs.


Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Some people will get comfort from seeing a psychic -- some people may get addicted.. At the end of the day its their choice.

Yup, some people will. Some won't, and others will react differently from those two polar opposites. Is that difficult to understand? Why is it so difficult to comprehend that there may be other scenarios out there that we hadn't considered?

If we say "well, its their choice" - then that's a huge blanket statement isn't it? That absolves any community of any attempt at helping out, or doing what is best for the majority and all kinds of other stuff. Its pretty much "Isolationism".

So, if life for you is "well, its their choice" then why both trying to argue/debate with anyone?
Slim King
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Yup, people still die of their disease no matter the treatment...however, the science based cure has evidence to back up the percentages and claims and is constantly trying to improve itself...

We've all debated these things countless times before, no point doing it again, we know it goes nowhere...

Stating facts not in evidence as facts ... We don't all agree it goes nowhere .. Violation of the 10 commandments of logic. Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Mr Salk
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Spooky girls have been a hit since the Fox Sisters.
.


.
IAIN
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, Slim King wrote:

Stating facts not in evidence as facts ... We don't all agree it goes nowhere .. Violation of the 10 commandments of logic. Smile


i don't believe it goes anywhere healthy, my reason for saying this is "all the other threads where it was initially attempted and then seriously devolved and became a playground"...

so if it happens again, I won't be taking part...i have a novel to finish...
kinesis
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, WitchDocChris wrote:
Just a thought to mull over here. Something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

Let's not talk about this particular example, but another which is also often mentioned. The idea of the psychic medium who contacts someone's dead relatives.

Let me also specify, I am not referring to the people who gouge their clients for every cent possible.

So you've got a Medium, and a Sitter. The Sitter has lost someone and has been grieving for a year or so. The grief is effecting their life in a negative way, because they just can't get beyond the pain of the loss and move on. They go to see the Medium, who professes to bring messages across the veil, and tells the Sitter that the deceased one is happy on the other side, and that it's time to move on. The Sitter then begins to genuinely move on, having finally gotten the closure.

We have a few possible scenarios here.

A) The Medium genuinely possesses the ability to communicate with the dead.
B) The Medium genuinely believes they possess that ability, but is in fact committing unconscious fraud.
C) The Medium knows they are using deception.

The end result is clearly good - The Sitter has begun moving on and will suffer less now.

Tell me, is the end result any less good with A, B, or C?

To bring it back to this topic: Yes, this girl is quite possibly a spokesperson for a fraudulent 'mystic school'. However, if that school brings value and community to a group of people - is it really that bad?

A sense of community and a core set of values to follow is the basis for society as a whole. To date there is absolutely no concensus as to what the "correct" set of values is, so we can't say that they are wrong. So even if people are spending tons of money on this - if they feel they are getting their money's worth, is it wrong?

This is why I say these things are not so black and white and why I don't believe that debunkers have the best interest of those they are 'saving' in mind.


A, B or C

The end result is no different with A, B or C but that doesn’t make the end result good. The end result is that the client believes it is possible to communicate with the dead. This is the 21 Century not the Dark Ages. It is generally accepted in the scientific community that you cannot communicate with the dead. Should this person later discover that the psychic was fake or discover that communication with the dead is not possible they will be left confused, betrayed and will have lost the closure they once had.

Clearly the girl with the third eye is a walking promotion for the ‘Mystic School’ You make way too many assumptions about this situation to have a fair debate. Let as assume the girl is fraudulent, and lets face it there’s a lot to indicate that she is. What sort of community spirit and core values are based on fraud? I’m quite sure the only people benefiting from this ‘Mystic school’ are the scammers that run it. How many are getting their moneys worth? At £10K….not very many. Yes, if someone feels they got their money’s worth then that’s fine but what about those that feel they’ve been conned? Shame? embarrassment?

Many debunkers genuinely have the best interest of others at heart. If I’m aware of something that I believe MAY be a scam the least I can do is arm that vulnerable person with tools that will help them decide if a particular situation is fraudulent or not. The biggest piece of ammunition is knowledge. No one gains from debunking a fraud, but exposing a fraud can save vulnerable people from being stung.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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seadog93
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Currently re-reading chapter one of "The Mental Mysteries and other writings of William Larsen Sr."
To be honest, when I first read it I thought it might be outdated. Clearly I was wrong.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Slim King
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, seadog93 wrote:
Cool, maybe this can give us some insight into the Fox sisters performance. I don't recall off the top of my head, are we talking about similar age ranges here?
Is this the same Nithyananda who is the brother of Gurumayi and was auto one point the co-guru of SYDA?

I saw what I personally considered some performance flaws, but it was certainly eye opening (!) to see the reception of this demonstration.

EDIT:
I know there are some polarized views on the subject but, at the risk of things going downhill, I will share what I found the most interesting part of the website attached to Swami Nithyananda's course. There is a page that you can request for swamiji to bless you that you will receive enough money to attend:
http://innerawakening.org/intention/
complete with testimonials:
http://innerawakening.org/intention/how-i-got-the-money/

I think one of us should have the Swami BLESS US for the $10,000 and see what happens.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
IAIN
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Step up to the plate, slim...

or maybe the witch doctor chris fella...go halveses, toss a coin - and one of you go for it, then report back and tell us how your third eye is getting on... Smile
Lseeyou
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From India * Nakul Shenoy

////////////// email transcript ///////////////////////////

A lot of our friends are falling prey to a well-planned scam, and we have to do what we can to stop this. The mid-brain / third-eye activation programme is taking the country by storm, and young children are being shown to be able to identify colours & objects, read, drive, draw, et al., while being blindfolded!

Having met a lot of parents personally - and also examined the kids who have had their mid-brains / third-eyes "activated", I can assure you that this is pseudo-scientific bauble and a scam.

In simple, the kids are being trained/coerced to peek through the blindfolds - from the gap between the blindfold and the bridge of the nose, and lie to everybody including their parents & close friends. While the children seem to bask in the temporary glory that this gives them as wonder-workers, in the long run this is playing havoc with their minds as they knowingly cheat everybody around them.

In Opening Eyes. Looking Beyond Blindfolds, I have posted a couple of anecdotes - which would be funny if they were not so unfortunate - and a simple test for you to run on your kids or others that may have undergone the mid-brain activation training.

Christopher Chabris & Daniel Simons in their pathbreaking book Invisible Gorilla espoused on the various ways our intuition deceives us. Even as they rewrote most everything we held to be true about perception and memory, C&S threw light on how we see and remember things the way we wish to, and not how it actually transpires.

In effect, we choose to be blind to reality and truth, and instead live in our chosen realm of the make-believe - one that fits our ideologies, our beliefs, and our comfort zones. And this is indeed the only explanation I find to parents across India (and abroad!) shelling out large sums of money to put their children through a programme that is at best a scam and at worst a criminal racket.

Even as prudent questions are raised and proof provided that the kids may have been 'encouraged' to peek through the blindfolds, many of the parents choose to blindfold themselves to the reality. The large amounts of money they have shelled out for these dubious workshops, make them hard-core believers in the waylaid claims!

Come, help our kids be the wonderful children that they are and help them free themselves from this scam that they are getting sucked into. If looking through blindfolds is what you want them to do, enrol them in a 'Learn Magic' programme, and not a scam like mid-brain activation. At the least, they will learn to entertain!

Best,

Nakul
IAIN
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Naaaaaah, let them spend their money, live a lie, teach the kids that its ok to lie to anyone as long as they feel good about it - live a life in debt, misery and worry...because its their choice to pay for it, and there is zero community or intervention, because those things are wicked and evil and we shouldn't be trying to educate ourselves - we should just let them get on with it, and not worry about punishing those who are living off the proceeds...definitely not...

</irony>
mindpunisher
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By all means tell people then let them make up their own minds... you can lead a horse to water but you can't lead a fish to a stable..
DocBenWiz
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Quote:
On Oct 23, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Naaaaaah, let them spend their money, live a lie, teach the kids that its ok to lie to anyone as long as they feel good about it - live a life in debt, misery and worry...because its their choice to pay for it, and there is zero community or intervention, because those things are wicked and evil and we shouldn't be trying to educate ourselves - we should just let them get on with it, and not worry about punishing those who are living off the proceeds...definitely not...

</irony>


Ditto,...tres agreement!
Smile Smile
"Pay no attention to that strange man behind the curtain" (it's only "Doc Benjamin from the Amazing Wizardelia Wagon")
mindpunisher
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So Iain what are you going to do personally about it?
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