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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Young Girl Claiming to be the real deal. (22 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Uli Weigel
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In other words: just claim anything that supports your opportunism. Have I got that right?
Nestor D
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As long as you don't hurt others.
And obviously don't hurt others because "they need the truth" if they never asked you for it.
Mifune
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I used the word 'science' referring to homeopathy and similars, not directed to this particular case, but I think I know what you mean.
IAIN
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Who cares? some of us do...

every one is entitled to care or not care about any thing..just so happens this thread is about this girl and what ideas/possibilities it supports...

there's another element at play too...

mentalism politics - some people don't want to rock the boat and express an opinion just in case someone, somewhere grumble at them and say "you just don't get it!" - well, what if you get it, but don't agree? its ok to express how you feel...even here...and even to people who we may interact with, be friends with despite of those intrinsic differences...

i fundamentally disagree with using certain perceptions, beliefs and methods to create a fake-reality, to help sell a course...which is what this clip is about...

i admire the whole framework, the techniques, how it is delivered - but I do not agree with it being delivered in this way...and I know some people believe in the "buyer beware" idea(l) too - as in, its your own stupid fault if it turns out to be a pile of poo...

is it preaching to the converted? maybe
is it selling a dream? in a way, yes
is it genuine? I believe not - not because we can replicate it, but because the implication of it being real is huge..there are lots of pretty easy and logical questions to think of, that would illustrate this...

so an easy one is this - this vid has been seen by many, many people, the site is up, there's other videos out there...if this can be taught, and it works 100% genuinely, then it would be very easy for (as an example) a person in the military to go and learn it and use it...or a con man to use it and learn PINs and all sorts of things (you could just go into a bank and use your third eye to watch someone write out their sort code and bank account and so on)...

so I also understand the counter-argument, "Ah but iain! how do you know that they DON'T ALREADY!" and at that, I just roll my eyes and mutter "yeah, yeah...", because if it did really work, everyone would be at...and maybe India would not have struggled so much against the Empire...or if its a newer thing to be discovered, they could be in a much better position politically than they are...all kinds of stuff...

it would be great and amazing if it was real, part of me wishes it was real because you could do a lot of good for the entire world with it...everyone would benefit...
mindpunisher
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Isn't she a "real" Mentalist in that she is using it to scam the public? Isn't that where mentalism comes from? I can't believe anyone with half a brain would hand over $10k on the basis of that performance and the following explanation....The performance and the blindfold was pretty awful by anyone's standards. Surely this is a spoof?
IAIN
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I dunno...i wouldn't say its a spoof...there's too many convincers in there...India still has a beautiful, mystical allure to many people from the west to a degree - there's still plenty of hollwood style swamis, psuedo-life coaches and others who all tie in one way or another, in with that mystic yogi style influence...

so this is a bit like that, to my third-eye anyway...

a lot of people still want to believe in this kind of thing, and there must be a market for it - otherwise the courses wouldn't sell, and the vids wouldn't be up...

doesn't make it right or healthy - but I do think a lot of people buy into the whole experience...
mindpunisher
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Yes your probably right. I still find it hard to believe. Years ago I thought I had a great idea for a weekend workshop a slant on hypnosis. I called it "insider Secrets". The idea was to teach how the media, marketers,politicians ,religion and even our closest friends family etc have a real impact on us. Not always in a good way. it was going to cover a whole range of things including big time motivational Gurus etc etc and how to identify techniques and patterns around us that can prevent us getting what we want and being used by others . The idea was to be able to take more control over what ends up in our heads. blah blah... But I was really surprised to ( maybe I shouldn't been though) to find out that a lot of people sort of know these things are fake or at least exist but they were happy believing in them. They didn't want to "wake up". I guess its kind of obvious when you think about it. A lot of people prefer to live in a fantasy.
mindpunisher
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Yes I guess you are probably right...
mindpunisher
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Lseeyou wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Amirá wrote:
I wonder why magicians and mentalist sometimes feels that they are the "ethic police"?

don't you see that doesn't matter if you expose "fakes" ? People will believe whatever they want. What would Mr. Bux think about this?


Because any human being that cares for others cannot stand silent when others are all being conned * doing the right thing became wrong?
Let us know why you stand by what you wrote.

"People believe in whatever they want" What psychology classes have you been into?



Many years ago I thought I had a great idea for a weekend seminar using hypnosis. "Insider Secrets" it was called. It was basically a personal development seminar teaching a kind of self hypnosis and a set of tools to develop a winning mindset. However the core idea was to reveal how we are all affected and even controlled or used to an extent by surrounding external influences. Politics, media, religion, Authority figures etc Even friends and family in some ways keep us where we are. However I came to realize it was a big marketing disaster as most people want to hold on to the dreams they are being sold. In fact a lot of people get angry when you try and point out certain things... That accounts for all those people that buy expensive products that promise the earth but never really complain.... they didn't really buy the results they promised they bought the dream. And for some people a dream is more comfortable than reality.
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Amirá wrote: There are more interesting things in life that trying to be an apparent hero . . .

Evidence of your bias. Maybe "trying to be an apparent hero" has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Amirá wrote: Maybe she is teaching notion and ideas that are far beyond our understanding as performers, or maybe not.

So toss out judgement? Toss out discernment? Do you think it's unusual for a person to consider whether someone's else's actions could hurt others?
truman
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On one hand, I think that the girl isn't mature enough to be thrust into the position that she's taking. She's a minor, and the rest of her life could be adversely affected by publicly appearing as a "real" whatever-she-is.

On the other hand, I'm wondering what Doc Shiels would say. I like that man and value his judgment.
DocBenWiz
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Sometimes though, don't you think its healthy to enable people to rethink certain idea(l)s?

Some people believe in homeopathy, and some of died because they stopped regular treatments and stuck with their homeopathy cure. They worsened, regardless of their positive and "this is curing me!" belief, when it wasn't...

What if I believed that heroin was a really great lifestyle choice?


Is that FREE heroin?...cuz appaeently a heck of a lot of people (probably some who sacrificed a lot), spent $10,000 to gain "third eye enlightenment" and didn't get the "blindfold" sight ability, although maybe they got a lot of Tony Robbins type "confidence" and inspiration!?
Smile Smile
"Pay no attention to that strange man behind the curtain" (it's only "Doc Benjamin from the Amazing Wizardelia Wagon")
Gumar Oz DuBar
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Keith Raygor wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Amirá wrote: There are more interesting things in life that trying to be an apparent hero . . .

Evidence of your bias. Maybe "trying to be an apparent hero" has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Amirá wrote: Maybe she is teaching notion and ideas that are far beyond our understanding as performers, or maybe not.

So toss out judgement? Toss out discernment? Do you think it's unusual for a person to consider whether someone's else's actions could hurt others?


What is judgement? Would you say that your judgement is different to that of Hitler's? I should hope you would say that. In which case, judgement is subject to interpretation. (And I think most of us would agree that Hitler's judgement of what the world should be, is, undesirable) I'd be curious to know, however, how you or anyone else against the propagation of these so-called spiritist cons, would answer the following hypothetical question, given the fact that Hitler was a known believer of Pagan and Nordic blood-myths and such. If a potential Hitlerite figure were to be killed due to refusing to take medication, in favor of attending some miracle prayer meeting by unscrupulous Spiritualists, say, would you be morally okay with that? And would these unscrupulous conmen, in this case, be doing something "good" by helping to rid the world of a "bad" person?

I believe your second point to be casuistic because all actions hurt others. When you get a gig, you're hurting the livelihood of another performer who could have gotten that gig and used it to feed himself and his family. And good thing too, because you deserve to eat. All actions are to the benefit of some and to the detriment of others. This is axiomatic.


Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, Mifune wrote:
Now I have a more "Darwinian" view (and I'm more careful with my personal data in internet), problem is when some wrong views (because some topěcs are not debatable,they are science) can harm innocent people. So, I repeat, I can't see the bad thing in, like Iain says, to help people to rethink some ideass giving them more information.


While "wrong" views can harm innocent people, and guilty people, "right" views can as well.

Also, wouldn't your views be considered antithetical to Darwinistic views? You're advocating "helping people" who are presumably being conned, by giving them "more information". Would that not be considered the strong (those not being conned) helping the weak, i.e. the opposite of natural selection, the opposite of survival of the fittest? Could I be wrong about that? I'm not a science major, and tonight's my night off, so my keyboard is spinning.


I should note that I have no dog in this race. And, I can hardly see my keyboard properly due to the vertiginous sensation that I experience with a single malt.

Love to all!
I write and edit text.
Mifune
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote:

While "wrong" views can harm innocent people, and guilty people, "right" views can as well.

Also, wouldn't your views be considered antithetical to Darwinistic views? You're advocating "helping people" who are presumably being conned, by giving them "more information".

Love to all!


First, sorry for all my typos in my previous post, I wrote it too fast.

About your first point: I was not referring to this case in particular, nor political views, nor religious views. I referred to medical or scientific missconceptions, so I don't see how a correct information on this topics can harm someone.

About your second point: I wanted to mean that my own behaviour is almost Darwinistic, not that it should be for everyone.


Love to you also!
Slim King
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Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Sometimes though, don't you think its healthy to enable people to rethink certain idea(l)s?

Some people believe in homeopathy, and some of died because they stopped regular treatments and stuck with their homeopathy cure. They worsened, regardless of their positive and "this is curing me!" belief, when it wasn't...

What if I believed that heroin was a really great lifestyle choice?

A good friend of mine embraced "Regular Treatments" with chemotherapy and he died as a result of it. Works both ways...
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
IAIN
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Yup, people still die of their disease no matter the treatment...however, the science based cure has evidence to back up the percentages and claims and is constantly trying to improve itself...

We've all debated these things countless times before, no point doing it again, we know it goes nowhere...
Anthony Black
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I have a third eye...

But I don't wave it about in public.
Keith Raygor
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote:
What is judgement? Would you say that your judgement is different to that of Hitler's? . . . . Love to all!


:)
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Oct 22, 2015, Slim King wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 21, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Sometimes though, don't you think its healthy to enable people to rethink certain idea(l)s?

Some people believe in homeopathy, and some of died because they stopped regular treatments and stuck with their homeopathy cure. They worsened, regardless of their positive and "this is curing me!" belief, when it wasn't...

What if I believed that heroin was a really great lifestyle choice?

A good friend of mine embraced "Regular Treatments" with chemotherapy and he died as a result of it. Works both ways...


Did he die because of the chemotherapy or because of the cancer? Big difference.
Tim Cavendish
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Wow, that was a quick jump to Hitler, just 3 posts into Page 2...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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