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Robb Inner circle 1291 Posts 
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On Nov 9, 2015, MagicalEducator wrote: Well, that was helpful. No MindVention next year guys! Instead, sign up to learn how to act from some adjunct professor at your local community college. Don't you know that WE need it! Also, don't forgot to make a big display of yourself warming up before the show so everyone can recognize you as a trained actor. |
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10798 Posts
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On Nov 9, 2015, Robb wrote: Great advice. Kennedy's best attributes are his groovy hair and his theatrical flair - which he eloquently combines to wicked effect on stage. Bob also has beautiful mane. See a pattern here?
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Don't worry about it, Robb.
Yes, acting classes are good. So is MindVention. Apples and oranges. |
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts
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Not exactly...most people need more apples as compared to another mental magic filled Mindvention.
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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jonnyboy Inner circle San Diego 1021 Posts
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Mindvention is about a lot more than just the lectures and the shows. It is also about meeting up with fellow mentalists from around the world, including pros, semi-pros, future pros and committed amateurs. Whether or not this Mindvention had too much mental magic does not take away from this important aspect.
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George Hunter Inner circle 2017 Posts
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Some of this discussion assumes that training in acting is necessary because the performing mentalist is necessarily playing the role of someone else. Leaders ranging from Lee Earle to Michael Weber commend an alternative: Play an enlarged and theatrically appropriate version of yourself!
Training for enhanced skills in speaking and performance are still necessary, but for a somewhat different set of reasons. George |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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On Nov 10, 2015, MagicalEducator wrote: Were you there? I don't recall meeting you in any of the highly interesting conversations and get-togethers that regularly take place during the event. But thanks for presuming to tell "most poeple" what they need. |
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Ken Dyne Inner circle UK 2268 Posts
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I don't know why it has to be an either/or choice.
Performers need to learn how to perform. Most 'performers' learn what they know from reading the basic skeleton of an effect in a magic book and think that's how it is performed. OR They watch an L&L publishing DVD and think that what they're seeing is a performance. It's not. A lecture, a DVD etc is most often a demonstration and explanation of effects. Effects that would not necessarily string together in any show. To use myself as an example, at MINDvention I demonstrated a piece I'd perform in a banqueting room, followed by a theatre setting piece, then an intimate parlour/dinne rparty peice with small envelopes and closed on a card trick that I'd only perform for fellow magicians to mess with their heads. The trouble we have as performers wanting to improve and grow, is realising that we have to. And the realise that the ways we have learned so far have only gotten us to where we are thus far. To grow beyond this demonstrative level we need to look in to the art of performance. N.B. not all actors are trained, there are 'naturals' too. But most are. This can be the same in any performance art such as magic and mentalism.
MR GOLDEN BALLS 2.0: https://mentalunderground.com/product/mr-golden-balls-2-0/" target="_blank"> https://mentalunderground.com/product/passed-out-deck/
BAIRN: Named 'Best Mentalism Product Of 2014 by Marketplace of the Mind is my collection of more than 40 mentalism routines in a beautiful paperback book: http://www.mentalunderground.com/product/bairn |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts
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I think MV -- and the very best thing about MV -- is the interaction with other performers. The REAL convention takes place in Jacks...or the Subway restaurant downstairs...or in the lobby outside the convention room.
It's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect the lecturers to appeal to EVERYONE...and while I did have a sense there was more mental magic there than before...I also got to know some very keen young mentalist minds. I sat with Bob for a very long time in a conversation that only occasionally touched on mentalism. I shared ideas with guys from all over the world. I finally got to tell Max Maven to his face how greatly I value his many contributions to the art. There were some wonderfully entertaining things in the lectures. The fact that some of it didn't apply directly to me isn't the fault of MV. Danny and Robert have to cater to a huge number of interests from bizarre to seance to...well...everything. I came away with an idea I am excited about. What more do I need? It's the one time of the year (okay...TWO if you count the PEA convention...which I do) when I can just relax and see mentalism for the joyful, magical amazing thing it is, instead of looking at it as a business. It's a time to visit with guys I really care about. Grading it JUST on the lectures and dealer room content is missing the point of the whole event. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4192 Posts
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You nailed it. Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts
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On Nov 11, 2015, mastermindreader wrote: I didn't have the pleasure of attending but sure I would have enjoyed it. There are a number of folks who've suggested that it was too much mental magic. I seem to recall that you yourself made that exact comment. Hard to argue with yourself I should think. Your complaints might be better directed elsewhere. I'm merely suggesting an alternative. I stand by my "most" comment as most would benefit from theatrical training or at least a director.
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts
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Well, I wasn't in attendance, and I may have missed a post that asks what I am going to ask, but as one who considers myself more "old-school," I wonder if the disappointment that there weren't more dealers at Mindvention is suggesting that the genre that is growing is "mental magic" as opposed to "mentalism"?
Now having stated that, I understand that Al Koran billed himself as a "mental magician" rather than a mentalist, but I would especially appreciate some of the Café mentalists who have been performing for a couple decades weigh in on my question. I'm postng this at 3 AM because I cannot sleep, so I hope I'm making sense. If not, ignore me! Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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nimrod Special user 881 Posts
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I wasn't there but many of my friends were and they all came back with a mehhh feeling. In Hebrew we say "parve" (no meet nor milk).
They say the only lecture that really shined above the others was Asi's, and he's not even a mentalist. I think the organizers need to re think their strategy and try to create once in a lifetime event because Vegas is far far away for many of us and the competition is tough; if I have to decide between Magic Live! and Mindvention my vote goes for the first, and I'm a mentalist! Nimrod , Israel |
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tgplano Special user Ted Gillam 614 Posts
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All of you that did not really attend MINDvention should quit talking. You have nothing to base your comments on. Every MINDvention has it's ups and downs. I've been to seven. Did I like everything at every one of them. NO! But, that's to be expected. We all have our own likes and dislikes. Danny and Robert try to produce a convention with something for everyone interested in the broad area of mentalism. This one had pure mentalism, séance, mind magic, card tricks, etc. I'm sure not everyone liked every session.
Now as to the comments on mind magic vs. pure mentalism. Honestly, what difference does it make? It only matters to us. The average audience member doesn't know the difference. Many top "Mentalists" perform mind magic or just magic in their acts. The idea is to have a show that is entertaining. If you achieve that it doesn't matter if it is PURE squeaky clean mentalism. If the audience leaves entertained and happy you have achieved the desired result. Again, I was there. It was good! Ted
Mentalism for the Metroplex
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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On Nov 15, 2015, Terry Holley wrote: I think it suggests several things all at the same time. It shows lack of support to the mentalism community by the "names" that are supposedly targeting and serving our industry. If you go to any other trade or industry event, the leaders are there, they are expected to be there. This is not the case with MV. There is no place at MV to see, learn about or purchase MOABT, SS B*******d, any of Osterinds products, Penguin or now Alakazam USA and others, books, DVDs and learning resources are minimal to rare, say you wanted to compare NWs or TTs, nowhere to do so, say you wanted to compare Fabrice's products to Lab Co's, not available (although one of them was there), say you want to see somd of the hot things from the last few years - not there, only the most recent releases, say you wanted to loo at some of the classics - Kohler's HPN, Wellington's hanging boxes (not using actual name here), Bernstein, some Becker & Earle stuff, Riggs stuff, nothing, unavailable. Where is L&L? Say you wanted some Rick Maue materials...nothing, unavailable. There should also be a place for buying and selling used or previously owned or unavailable items. I can't tell yo how any guys I talk to come to MV with hundreds or thousands of dollars wanting to look at and perhaps buy some of the things that have been talked about here on the Café or in the trade, only to be disappointed that they are not there. It's MV! They expect them to be there. The same has happened to me. There were several things I'd wanted for years, when I went to my first MV I brought $3000 expecting to purchase these things. I left with $2,800 still in my pocket because none (literally) of the things I went to buy were available. I ended up buying some lecture notes and some Strivings stuff that I knew I'd never use but seems fun and I wanted to support Mark. (Btw, I can't tell you each year how many go to MV thiking they can buy a SUC only to find it not there). Mental magic, I believe, is what is really growing, not true mentalism, but again for the wrong reasons. It is for many magicians that want to be seen in the mentalism realm, without having to learn, understand and commit to mentalism and "the process of learning mentalism", so therefore the mental magic is a quick fix solution. "I can just do magic under he premise of being a mentalist." The problem is many of these guys will tell you they are mentalists and present themselves and to their audiences as mentalism. It is this that then becomes the trivialization and create problems with mentalism. Dealers realize the magicians market is larger, more profitable and easier to target. So the trend is towards easy to use - self working mental magic. Magic that a magician can still perform and pretend they are a mentalist. Yes, I believe it is the mental magic area of the business that is growing and being perpetuated by the dealers and companies. This then of course translates to MV and it's image and content. Nimrod, I have heard the same thing as well from many. The problem I have is when the highlight of the convention is a magician or nothing to do with mentalism. A magician doing card tricks under a guise of mentalism, sends the message that is is okay and acceptable and IS mentalism, and can be seen and accepted as mentalism to our audience. It very much so is clouding the water and supporting such only perpetuates the acceptance, trivialization and its acceptance. This is going to hurt MV if it hasn't already. |
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Tim Cavendish Inner circle 1406 Posts
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On Nov 16, 2015, Mindpro wrote: It seems off base to compare high-volume manufacturing or trade industries to mentalism, which is a performance art. You're actually talking here about "mentalism supply" -- specialized tooling and materials to support mentalism. Mentalism Supply is pretty much a cottage industry. How many mentalism supply sources even have employees? The margins and sales volumes enjoyed by major industries which support promotion via trade shows -- and the payoffs of major contracts landed via those shows -- don't really scale down to the level of mentalism supply, where the absent vendor of a well-reviewed product will likely sell approximately the same number of units by mail order anyway. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts
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I am not sure anyone -- okay with a COUPLE of exceptions -- contributes to the mentalism community with an eye toward making a ton of money. In the first place, it's unrealistic. The mentalism community is tiny by "magic" standards to begin with. And within that already small community, how many members actually purchase books, ebooks and props? And of that small percentage of a smaller percentage -- how many are likely to purchase whatever you (being the "pretty much anyone 'you.'") are putting on the market?
To further complicate things: within this tiny mentalism community there are distinct factions. There are performing mentalists and hobbyists, guys doing seance work, bizarre performers and "readers" -- there are ones that specialize in stage or close-up. Each group has it's own set of requirements and items they are interested in buying under the broad umbrella of "mentalism." When I started writing books, a noted mentalist author told me that a "bestseller" was in the neighborhood of 50 sales -- and a runaway bestseller was 100 or more. Props hit "bestseller" at a significantly lower level. So do the math. It didn't phase me because I, like many others, am genuinely interested primarily in simply giving back to a community that has given me so much. Sure the extra money is nice -- but let's be brutally honest here: I will make more in three corporate shows with much less effort than I will from any single book. There really is no other reason to release a prop, a routine or a book other than to help out other performers. To speak to another topic: I've never gone to MV to purchase props. I've bought some there, of course. I remember picking up Evolution from ProMystic one year. But my purchases now are far and few in between as my act is mostly set and I would only add an effect/routine/prop if it was stronger than something I was already doing. More to the point: the deeper I get into mentalism, the more I realize that the strongest effects are accomplished with bits of paper, pencil d*ts and a chalkboard. So do I NEED a new prop? Nope. I would point out that at the 2015 PEA convention, there was no dealer's room. But there were LOTS of "holy crap that's cool" ideas being exchanged. Finally: my thinking has done a 180 on MV. When I think about how fragmented and...well...tiny the convention-going mentalism community is, I realize what a huge task is facing Danny and Robert as they put it together. MV is still an extremely valuable resource because it is one of the very few places where mentalists can gather and talk and exchange ideas outside of PEA membership. As has been noted before: the REAL convention takes place during personal interactions anyway. The community needs to support MV. Why not provide constructive ideas? I KNOW Danny and Robert are listening. Throwing rocks at this event accomplishes absolutely nothing...and in the very unlikely event that MV ended, you KNOW it would be sorely missed. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Justin Lewis Special user 981 Posts
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On Nov 16, 2015, David Thiel wrote: Very much agree! This was my first mind vention and admittedly I do love the shiny new tools in mentalism Being sold. I got a lot out of my first MV. New friends, new ideas and new books and effects. One huge part of the event was chatting and learning from David Thiel at jacks. Great time! I took What David taught me to heart and my performances are better because of this. Having valuable time with valuable working professionals is priceless. Mind vention was a great experience! Spending time with guys like David, Brett Berry, Jan Forster, Kennedy, and last but not least Bob Casisdy is the hallmark of MV for me!
“The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it.”- Anonymous
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10798 Posts
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It might be something to consider for Danny to put a new face on things by changing venues - lord knows there are plenty of Vegas hotels. But why not?
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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George Hunter Inner circle 2017 Posts
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I do not usually disagree with SS1, but I think that any significant MV issues are not at all with the venue. The Palace Station's facilities, prices, meals, consistency, etc. match whatever we might reasonably expect to find anywhere else.
George |
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Posted: Nov 10, 2015 01:24 am 
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