BTW, Funsway, I do a wide variety of magic, so coin magic is really a small part of what I do. Therefore, I focus on simple sleights. I do a bit with a shell and a flipper. However, I also have a few routines that I do with ungimmicked coins. Here are a few of my favorites that I actually perform:

1. A three fly that is based on Greg Wilson's that involves basically one move, the Goshman pinch.
2. A little routine with a borrowed dime that turns onto a penny.
3. My favorite is a routine with a borrowed quarter. I borrow a quarter and say I am going to make it disappear. It starts with a false transfer to the left hand and then both hands go behind my back. The left hand pretends to put the coin in my back pocket. The hands come out empty. I then say it hasn't disappeared, it's just invisible. I show both hands empty in a few different ways while showing the invisible coin. The routine is a bit of jazz, with the coin appearing on their shoulder or dropping from the air into their hands, etc.

I would love to add another non-gimmicked coin routine, perhaps something that is fun and humorous. I can do a number of simple sleights, but some that I can't do include coin rolls, stairstep down the back of the fingers, or muscle passes.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

KJ

KJ,

Two non-gaffed routines that are easy enough to do yet are very deceptive are Daryl's "Elbow, Knee, and Neck" and "The Mysterious Cross of India". Both scripts are available - for the very reasonable price of $2.95 each - at Daryl's site, www.daryl.net .

Can't go wrong with these.

Jim

The Slydini One Coin Trick seems to fit the bill. The sleights are simple, the effect is very strong. You can find it in The Best Of Slydini...And More.

It would be really useful to see a video performance of some of the routines included on the book please. Are the routines suitable for mix and mingle, or presenting to a table, or the formal seated presentation? This is vital for me, as are angle restrictions, reset etc.

Vinny has many videos out for his coin effect demonstrating Crimp Techniques. He has others demonstrating some of the moves, sleights and finger positions, These have proved to be poor teaching tools,
as they do not touch on the "real secrets of magic" such as why not moving the finger is important and why showing the passing hand to be empty is critical.

Also missing on a video is any sense of routining -- what came before, what will follow and, "is this effect appropriate for this audience and setting?"

The books will focus on integrating these factors: video demonstrations, still photos of hand positions, written descriptions and stepped instructions indexed back to the Performance Modules as building blocks for the effects.

It will also be about the creative process -- the difference between derivative and non-derivative approaches, and ways to fuel innovation in the reader/student.
Naturally, concerns over blending "what came before' with "how others will use these ideas" is very important. Stories about Vinny's particular influence on magic will provide humor and inspiration.
......

Look what is happening on this thread. I offered an effect that might be considered impossible for many coin performers. It is a teaser for the book, but also to indicate the style of description used in the book.
It also touches on some performance issues of 'setting patterns," timing, integrated hand positions and psychological ploys.
What is also important is that I created this effect after I learned of Vinny's techniques. It would not exist if I had not learned them and Vinny would never have thought in this direction.

No one has indicated a desire to wait and learn how this effect is done. No problem -- inspiration and focused thinking is the objective of the book.
Some offered alternatives to hand position. Great! These won't improve this effect but may lead the individual to create a different or better one. The creative thinking is what is important.

Others have offered alternative effects. Strange to me but OK too if it encourages a reader to appraise their current stock of methods and look at alternatives.
I say "strange" because I do not understand -- do they think the suggested effect would be more magical that the one I offered? Do they think that one would be easier to learn than mine?
Are they guessing at method and testing the waters? Other reasons?

We don't have to know the answers, of course. If a person reads these new books and decides not to perform any of the methods that will be terrific --
because they will have been taken to the core of what is important to them in engaging an audience and engendering awe and wonder.

Vinny once told me, "There is a special thrill when I show someone one of my methods and they then show me a better way that they created. That is magical for me."

The above comments also show the problem of taking any move, slight or effect out of context. Even worse is viewing a video and thinking that is what a lay spectator would see.

One reason Vinny asked me to write a book is that many Crimp Techniques do not always show well on a video, and he fears someone might not explore them from incomplete understanding.

So, many Performance Modules will refer to videos as visual aids to learning. None will say, "watch the video and then read how to do it."
Some moves will not look astonishing on video. Some moves can never be shown on video as they only happen in the mind.

Fortunately, an eBook format allows for integration of all methods. I may even create auditory instructions if there is a need.

I appreciate all comments during this creative process -- especially those that affirm that these books will not be for every one.

I am reforming the first book of the series to insure that those not interested in the Methods do not waste their time or money on approaches that will not work for them.

All of the issues of creativity, credits, learning styles, audience engagement, use of coins, etc will be discussed first before getting into specific methods, techniques, slights and effects.
That way, when we get down to "the nitty gritty" no time need be wasted in discussing those issues further.

I am in favor on giving this first book away free -- not to create excitement about the others in the series, but in hope those buying them will be students and not just readers.

Vinny is of the mind, "If they don't pay for it they won't appreciate it."

Perhaps we should charge something, but then give a refund to any who fill out a from at the end for feedback.
That way we can continuously refine the Series and correct errors. Completion might also provide access to abLog for discussing the issues in depth.
The concept is not to "teach" anything for which the performer is not prepared, but to create a learning environment in which each student can find more than what they seek.

I also appreciate the PMs and private email responses from those who fear being attacked on Café' threads.

It is all good. whether it is magicial is up to the individual.

I do not consider the handling of a shell or flipper as "simple" -- so kudos to you. The Goshman Pitch is far from a simple handling.


Learning the Thumb Crotch position is very easy. Learning multiple to get in and out of that position a bit more difficult -- requiring practice.. Learning how to integrate thees techniques with other sleights and palming positions a bit harder,
but well within the abilities of one who can do what you do. Learning when NOT to use these techniques is very difficult. All of these concepts are part of Vinny's Crimp Methods developed over 50+ years.

For example, the ability to apparently show the Passing Hand empty after a Pass is critical. The selection of palm concealing position depends on effect flow and setting rather than "my favorite."
The Thumb Crotch provides an alternative to those listed in BoBo (for example). But does knowing of that palm position give flexibility to the performer's ability to create astonishment?
You obviously have to learn the techniques of using this "tool" effectively in combination with other factors.

One Method includes is CrimpRoll that combines several sleights into a continuous, casual display of the Passing hand to be empty from all sides and angles.
One of the Palming Positions is thumb Crotch. Two others are positions are ones you probably already know. One is a sleight I developed 60 years ago.

Even then, the combination of moves does not make CrimpRoll magical. It is the ability to perform it as if it "never happened" that makes the observer "know" that the coin is in the Receiving Hand.

Is learning such things "Simple?" They are natural to Vinny from years of performing live under many conditions. He has difficulty explaining these concepts.

Jokingly, the godfather just waves his hand and things get done. He is a man of few words, often impatient and gruff.

The books will provide far more information than any performer will ever use. Pick out what works and ignore the rest. That is simple.

Ok so I take that as a no to video clips then? No problem. I'm not questioning the merits of using video as a teaching aid, it would just be nice to see the contents some of the material.

Are the routines suitable for the stand-up performer please?

Good luck with the book.

Sean, take a look a Vinny Marini's YouTube Channel and you'll find plenty there.

https://www.youtube.com/user/vinsmagic/videos

Jim

Many clips available --
enter "Vinny Marini youtube" on the address line of Google/other and you will find several

but most are not "effects" in the sense that they would be performed that way

Many are best performed on a table or behind a stand of some sort. I sometimes use a tray on a walker.

There will be effects in the book that can be performed standing and ideal for "walk around."

based on this thought I might add a section addressing "table" vs "other" settings.

coins are either good for parlor settings or not. That is a matter of presentation and visibility.

you sound like a "stand-up" performer regardless of props or venue

Yes I'm a full time working pro so mix and mingle and performing around tables is my environment. As such, my routines need to be pretty much angle proof and immediately reset. I always want to end clean as well, with any props at the end of a routine being examinable by the spectators. If there are some good commercial routines in your book that tick the boxes, happy days let me know.

Thanks for the links too, I'll check them out - I hope there are a few stand up clips and not just seated at a table.... 😀

Not sure about the current videos, but I do some standup effects using these methods that will be in the books.

Actually, I have changed some old routines to include Crimp Methods as an improvement.

For example, when doing any number of effects with a T.U.C. after a Bottom Split I now move the Leaf to Thumb Crotch rather than drop to FingerPalm.

I am now much better prepared for a number of subsequent actions. The CrimpChange is also very valuable for "ringing in" a gaff.

So, I am sure that some of the routines you already do might benefit from these techniques.
If not, the comparison will give you new confidence in your old method.

Jim,

Thanks. I've gotten to where I mostly perform only with quarters, dimes, nickels, or pennies. Could I do Elbow, Knee, and Neck with quarters?

KJ

Sure can. Daryl says he uses half dollars but there's nothing there that you can't do with quarters. Same with The Mysterious Cross of India, which is one of the most deceptive yet open Coins Across routines I've seen.

Jim

And Daryl's "Mysterious Cross of India" is straight out of the pages of 'Modern Coin Magic' (Bobo).

There's a reason why I always say that there's nothing new under the sun.

Mike.

Really? Can you tell me where? I can't remember seeing it in there. And hopefully you're not talking about Flying Eagles.

Also, which revision is it in? Original or the New MCM?

Thanks!

Jim

I point it out in my Bobo Study Guide (in two separate places, in fact). Whenever I bring it up, everyone reacts just the same as you, Jim - blown away by the fact that our heroes are using material that was published over 50 years ago. Much like when I tell people that David Roth didn't invent the retention of vision vanish and that his retention of vision vanish can be found in Bobo and everyone is blown away with the fact and confronts me with, "Show me where this is in Bobo and prove yourself."

You can download my Bobo Study Guide here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1670559619838521/files/

Then just do a search for "Daryl" and you'll find the specific trick that is Daryl's "Mysterious Cross of India" already published on the pages of Bobo (and NO - it's not "Flying Eagles").

So, I've already proved myself and you can do the research. I just don't see a reason to constantly prove myself when the proof is already published elsewhere. Sorry, Jim - but I have given you everything you need to find the proof.

Oh, on a side note: I've already stated that it isn't "Flying Eagles", but you also asked if the Daryl effect was in the original or the "new" version...Yes, it's in the original version - seriously, use the link, download the guide, do the search and you'll find that Daryl's trick is well over 70 years old.

Mike.

Mike,

Why do you say I'm "blown away"? Definitely not! I just don’t remember seeing it in Bobo, plus I did a quick scan of the Coins Across section after reading your post and didn't see it then either. I did recently download your "guide" but haven't taken a look at it yet. Sorry if that bothers you. I wasn’t asking you to "prove" yourself; just wondered where the effect was in Bobo. I know I've seen you have some arguments - or perhaps, serious discussions - here on this forum but this wasn’t meant to be one of them - Don’t be so sensitive!

As for the Bobo/Daryl reference, if I happen across it, well and good. I have too much going on to research such a minor reference presently.

Thank you.

Jim

Doesn't bother me at all, Jim. The exact method is listed in Bobo, an easy search proves it. If you can't be arsed to search it, then that's fine. But, it's there for all the world to see. If you don't have time to do the research, that's fine...But don't claim that it's not based on your decision not to do the research. I've given you (or anyone else) the proof that my claim is true. And that's really the bottom line.

Mike.

Got to disagree with you there Michael Jay. The inseparable pair is not the same methodology. If I remember correctly, it is closer really to the HPC move, done with the arms crossed.
The parts that make the cross of india so unique is the fact that there are not coins tossed or transferred from hand to hand. I also relies on there being multiple coins to mask the method.
While I agree that a lot of coin material out there is rehashed from Bobo's, I don't see it here other than crossing the hands.


But thank you for the guide. I read your old guide before and thought it was really spot on (although still think the gaffs should be after the classics and coins across section).
I'll pass it on to a few of my friends that I've recently converted to coin magic.

I feel we are going to find much in common in our thinking Michael, but I have a problem with this "post hoc" fallacy approach,
such as above, "when I tell people that David Roth didn't invent the retention of vision vanish and that his retention of vision vanish can be found in Bobo"

references to a POV principle and effects using it can be found long before Bob o published his notable work. He catalogued sleight he had learned,
but it is in no way complete or always accurate in his references. The fact that a given or similar move can be found in Bobo has nothing to to do with its origin.

Several people can have discovered a principle independently. We can sometimes know of the first published reference or use of name, but that doesn't speak of who first came up with the idea.

There also seems to be an assumption that the existence of an earlier reference implies that any later performance must be based on that knowledge. This is a fallacy.

Roth has been known to put his name on other moves/sleights when they were "generally known," so I am not supporting him specifically or criticizing his choices,
but do suggest that without his name the effects might not be so popular now. Copyright, originality and creativity are separate functions.

Yes, a young magician may have seen a move performed with no knowledge of its origin and have been influence in creating a modification.
That still does not mean that he learned it from Bobo or was required to search every book for a prior reference.

Alternately, he might have had a boring weekend with nothing but a couple of coins to amuse himself and come up with the move based on nothing but imagination and fiddling around.
If he wishes to publish this effect he might research and give reference to the similar method, but to say his creation was "based on" is false.

Even if one wishes to do such research, many Internet sites provide demon stations of sleights and effects with no credits at all, so how would a newbie even know of Bobo?

So, perhaps any person challenging another's originality should have to prove the causal link. It cannot be assumed. "Came before" is not proof.

I highly recommend that anyone serious about coin magic read Bobo and possibly your related work. I would hope that inspiration is the result rather than just learning an old way of doing things.

Yet, I will never presume that a magician must read Bobo in order to perform good coin magic or to create a new coin effect.
A couple of coin sleight I learned as a kid are not in Bobo. Where do I look next? I did not create them -- just don't know the correct name.
Why can't I call it anything I wish until I find out a better name?

Also, some of my best original coin sleights were created for effects using stones and nuts -- then modified for C&B effects with fuzzy balls.
Only in the last decade have I modified some for use with coins. When I learned of a similar effect in a book such as Bobo I changed the name to avoid confusion,
but in no way was my sleight "based on" Bobo or any coin book.

Must I call it by one name in a C&B effect and another in a Coin book?