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Dorian Rhodell Inner circle San Francisco, CA. 1633 Posts |
Vinnie, sent you a pm
I know, I remember. This was not directed towards you. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
It's really quite simple, Vinny and Ken. Either purposely or accidentally Vinny's choice of words give a very clear "I'm going to publish it anyway!" air about them.
To make it as clear as possible: Quote:
On Nov 26, 2015, vinsmagic wrote: The choice of wording dismisses what at the time is admitted to be a prior publishing of the move. By the way Vinny's YouTube video seems to be inaccessible now. Quote:
of the hundreds of well known magicians I showed this move to none ever seen it Again dismissive toward what was admitted to being a prior publishing of this move simply because "hundreds" of well versed magicians didn't know of it. Our rich history has many examples of moves which already existed but were not on the radar of assumed well versed magicians. Quote:
the creators name will have to be mentioned in the book. Note that you fail completely to even consider that if someone created it before you that you should attain that person's permission to publish the move, let alone rename it as you seem dead set on from the first quote above. Those points, and only those points are what I addressed. Now, if you have proof of prior publishing of the move, yes, it should be brought to Luis' attention. But that is not what you first put forth. As to your choice of author for this ebook, I agree with those who believe based on his comments here he has little respect for the established history of magic and that will reflect badly on the work and possibly you, Vinny. Like many people on the Internet, Vinny, rather than taking a humble approach to discovering a move you discovered has been discovered by another as well, and possibly first, you react most often with an "I'm the Godfather. **** the rest!" attitude and that comes off as not respecting the history of magic. You are a very prolific magic move discoverer. It's only common sense that much of what you come up with will have pre-existing publishing history. To think that you are entitled to publish everything you think of just because you never heard of the pre-existing move, is disrespectful of the history of magic. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
An amazing analysis, Tom, since you have never seen the book and have no idea what it contains, how it handles credits and references, etc.
you are making assumptions based on the assumptions of others - plus a preconception (opinion) of what a book should look like. You also err in thinking that Vinny's views of credits and originality must be the same as mine, or visa versa. What Vinny says on Café posts has no influence as to what will be in the book. "We" are not publishing the books, "I" am. I have free license to write, organize, edit and present the ideas in any manner I choose. If, after reading, you have a problem with how I handled things then it is Ken who you should address with reasoned suggestions for corrections. Rantings and anything from a public forum or FaceBook will be ignored. Any abusive response will be ignored. Feedback from those interested in magic will have a voice and influence. I look forward to that. The format and material in books 3-4 will reflect valid feedback form those who read the first two. That is research. The point is that all of these attacks against Vinny will have no impact on what is in the books. Attacks against me based on what you don't like about videos are silly and groundless. Attacking your own silly guesses is just weird. Posted opinions based on assumptions and guesses only support why the books are necessary. The more you don't like the videos, the greater need for the books. The more you ignore the value of the magic and focus on personal issues, the greater the need for the books. Now I can consider a new book, "The impact of heuristic fallacy on learning magic as an art," or something. Thanks for that.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Tom I credit the slight to goshman and han pien chien not some fancy spanish word that no one would ever remember. Second I said I will give credit even if mine came first or not. You see I always give credit to who inspired me and there name is always attached to my work.
Remember, I don't read Spanish and what I did came from me and my inspirations and I will always give credit, even for the reinvention. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote: Ken,
On Dec 3, 2015, funsway wrote: I have made no assumptions. I have, twice now, made only direct response to the words both you and Vinny have provided here. The closest thing to assumptions I have made are these. I assume when someone uses aggressive and dismissive wording that they are being aggressive and dismissive. I also assume that those who preach that an idea is theirs to do with as they please simply because they thought of it, and ignoring the history of the idea, will act in accordance with said preaching. If not the case, then bringing it up here was simply disingenuous. |
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Bill Mullins New user 90 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, funsway wrote: No way. Research is figuring it all out before you publish. Publishing without regard to the historical record, then allowing readers to correct mistakes for you, then publishing their work, is not research. |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
One question. If a magician uses a classic palm in a effect, who is he crediting???????? But if he uses a certain technique to get into and out of the palm he can say hes using his moisture technique and he is still using a classic palm. The technique is different not the palm.
The book isn't even out yet and I have to approve it first before it's released. |
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Dorian Rhodell Inner circle San Francisco, CA. 1633 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, Bill Mullins wrote: A better way to say this may be that research can be included with diligent and systematic inquiries into a subject. |
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Dorian Rhodell Inner circle San Francisco, CA. 1633 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, vinsmagic wrote: To my knowledge, no one knows the creator. HOWEVER, in less than two minutes, I went to D.B.'s website, typed in classic palm, and the first mention was that it was published in Hoffmans Modern Magic in 1876. For a more accessible source, refer the reader to Bobo. Then you can mention you have a certain HANDLING such as saliva, moisture etc. to facilitate getting in and out of the palm. But before you do that, again go to D.B.'s website and have a look. You don't have to be a historian. Best, Dorian |
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Dorian Rhodell Inner circle San Francisco, CA. 1633 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, Dorian Rhodell wrote: Sorry I meant to say that "feedback" can be included... |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Where did you get "publishing without regard to the historical record?" Is just making things up part of your method?
As stated clearly, the first volumes will have all the credit and references required. All of the historical research was completed many months ago. Not a single new issue has been brought up by the nay-sayers and trolls. The last two book will be based on research of what the readers desire by way of effects and applications. Yup -- before I complete the last two I will have completed research on what will meet the needs of my audience. Additions may be made to the first two books for clarity. Not planning on any "mistakes."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Wrong Tom. You say:
"I have made no assumptions. I have, twice now, made only direct response to the words both you and Vinny have provided here." You have made no response to any words I provided about the Thumb Crotch or books, only referred to statements made by others based on guesses and assumptions. Please provide a quote if you don't understand something. Do not attach my name to something Vinny has said, or others have invented. Have you read the books? No! Can you make any reasoned comment about what it contains? No! Do you know what credits are given? No! You are confusing what Vinny says in posts and on some videos and what I say in the book. Try dealing with facts. What do you know about these books? I will help you so that you do not have to guess. 1) there will be several books, providing information in steps so that no one gets involved with things they do not like. 2) Creativity will be addressed in general and specific to Vinny, together with history, credits, references and development ideas. Godfather stories are included for fun. 3) The Thumb Crotch will be examined as a palming method with advantages, disadvantages, comparison with other palming methods and interaction with other palming methods. 4) Crimp Techniques based on TC will be explored as to Sleights, Moves, Subtleties, Performance Modules and psychological ploys. Most are original and few credits required, but study references provided anyway. 5) Five methods of getting into TC will be explored in detailed. Three are Vinny's, two are mine. No published sources on these. 6) Coin effects based on these Techniques will be in the third book with credits as needed for any similar effects using other palming methods. The standards of credit by those of other noted authors of effects like Jay Sankey. 7) A fourth book will be on effects using objects other than coins but taking advantages of Crimp Techniques. I know of no published sources of these despite extensive search. Some C&B ball steals might be similar but are not specific. 8) a fifth book might be published of effects offered by other performers inspired by these books. Contributors will provide their own credits. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify these issues. Your obvious confusion over what Crimp Techniques make the books more necessary that ever. Those who don't like Vinny can stop after the first free book. Those interested in magic rather than personal attacks might choose to continue. Pretty simple.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dafedas B Regular user 199 Posts |
Nice 1 Vinny. Very cool.
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Mano Inner circle 1028 Posts |
Knock'em Dead Godfather.
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, vinsmagic wrote I'm not a coin guy and I know several moves which utilize the thumb crotch. How you are using it I can't say because you video is no longer available on YouTube at the link provided. To say there is no info in print about using the thumb crotch in coin sleights seems massively far fetched. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Ken,
You are still utterly lost with this language thing. You accuse people who value proper historical crediting as being only interested in ego or money. You rail on about how an independently discovered move has no roots, ergo no history. Your use of words here makes it clear you have not much time nor care for the history of magic sleights. You say things like: "Surely, the creative energy involved is more important than "who published first." So some have come here to tell you "No". The history of the creation of magic sleights and effects IS very important. It is one way in which to gain inspiration. You are correct that another way to be inspired is to ignore the past and come up with whatever you want, and publish whatever you want because you never knew the history of the move you independently rediscovered. Many will find the publishing and renaming of existing magic effects or sleights to be utterly disrespectful of the history of magic and those who came before us. So either you will approach this project in that manner, or you will not. If the latter, then your bringing it up in this thread is utterly disingenuous. |
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Dorian Rhodell Inner circle San Francisco, CA. 1633 Posts |
Ken, hope you didn't think it was me who made the publshing without regard comment.
Vinny, in regards to crediting the CP, check my post above. D |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9981 Posts |
Quote:
On Dec 3, 2015, Tom Cutts wrote: So you agree with me. That is great! I have always said that the history of the creation of magic sleights and effects is very important. The fact that I feel that the creative energy is MORE important in no way minimizes the what I feel about the history of said creation. However, What I personally feel about magic creativity and what I put into a book as an editor for Vinny's work are not the same thing. Will my views overshadow Vinny's or the other way around? Or will current credit standards as evidenced by popular magic creators be followed? You do not know, and there is no need to guess or project. but, since you bring up this issue and seem an expert on research, please show me any sleight or effect based on the use of Thumb Crotch other than possibly Demanche Change. The TC or other name referred to as early publications only describe a palming position, one that cannot be found on most readily available Internet listings of palming methods. Crimp Techniques detail Sleights, Moves and Performance Modules based on TC that have never been published before. When you show me those that already exist I will happily include them in the books with proper credits. A later book will demonstrate or suggest ways in which these Techniques can be applied to popular coin effects with proper credits and references. Some of these will be from recommendations from readers based on research into their interests. Whether or not these new effects will be "better than" or just "different from" will be an individual choice for the reader. Thanks again for illustrating why these books are necessary. When an expert like you is confused over "palm position" and "sleight" and "effect" ... I will be excited to learn of what you find by way of such sleights and effects in your next post. Thanks for the help in documenting these historic sleights and effects (if any). Otherwise I will have to be true to the "history of known sleights" based on the evidence I now have. These books will form the basis of history for all future references to these Techniques. It will be much simpler for future effect creators to give proper credit. I have created several myself based on Vinny's inspiration. So can you.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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bignickolson New user 87 Posts |
Just for fun, the Thumb Grip in Magic Without Apparatus, first published in France in 1914, translated to English in 1945. 101 years ago in French, 70 years ago in English. Text also includes at least two methods for getting into and out of position
Click here to view attached image. |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
Tom I think you have it all wrong about me. I don't have books. I researched this palm at the magic castle library. I tried to find work on the thumb crotch but I cant find any thing except what I said that demache was the only magican that seemed to use it. I know Harbottle has used this palm.
My point is that I can perform most any coin effect using the TC ....if one uses a finger palm, classic palm, thumb palm, or downs palm I can do the same effects using the tC and even more This is what I want to share with the community, not change the name of the TC. Yes I have used the name crimp palm. I've used this over 20 years even if its not called that. After all, the tenkai pinch is called the goshman pinch because Goshman popularized the move.... The demos I put up are not polished, they just examples how I use my technique. VINNY' |
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