Ken, I don't know why you say the crimp position differs from my description;it does not. I have illustrations of it from Hoffmann's book and it matches the crimp exactly.

Thanks,
Jim

Your description says, "the coin is kept between the first joint of the thumb and where the thumb meets the rest of the hand."

That is "in the crease" for me. The Crimp position has the coin caught in the flesh at the base of the thumb.

The difference is in how the coin can be easily released and multiple coins held. The entire idea of "kept" implies a "hold" and not a dynamic foundation for Moves and Sleights.

As noted, for many of the Moves and Sleights it makes no difference and calling it Frikell Grip might serve. Vinny acknowledges the similarity and called it that until others suggested Thumb Crotch.

There are other photos of a coin held in "modified thumb palm." Some or the same and some different, i.e. they make no distinction.

Regardless, trying to learn Crimp Techniques from either watching a video or studying a photo does not seem to inspire people to use it in effects.

Thanks for your interest. If that photo shows the ideal position it is great.. For me the written description doesn't match.

Please note that even if the outcome of such a study is to make you appreciate your current methods more it will be terrific.

I became excited when I developed a method of shifting through several palming positions to casually show all sides of my hand having "no object." (CrimpRoll)

The addition of this thumb (grip/crotch/crimp) position allows this for me. When I hold the object "where the thumb meets palm" it does not.

Naturally, this feature is only important if showing the passing hand to be empty is important to the performer ( as in a fake transfer).

I never suggested that these Techniques will suit everyone -- only that the process of exploration and creativity might be.

Maybe I should title one book "Why you should not use the Crimp" -- then some will attempt to prove me wrong

funsway -- Please don't take my post as an attack. It was not meant as such. You want to see Vinnie's magic shared to those who will take advantage of it. I want to see it explained clearly. We have much in common here.

Great!

I understand that what seems clear to me may not be to others, which is why I have proof-reader contributors.

More importantly, I will not write the final two books without feedback from readers as to what they are excited about.

Just can't figure out why anyone would assume it would not be clearly presented, or that differences from other methods not clarified or addressed.

I want to see the enhancement possibilities of an additional palming method shared. Vinny is part of that dynamics. Other people who have played with this approach are part.

People who read these books and come up with new effects or modified old ones will be part.

I could write a book on "25 special ways to use fingerpalm" also. Vinny's personal history and "flair" add some charm to this book, so it seems like a better idea. I don't have to like them to appreciate them.

Hopefully, someone will write a book on his original card control methods. Not my thing.

I am selfish, I guess. I have several new handlings based on Crimp/TC that Vinny never thought of. I want those known too.

Did you realize that the top of a creamer is "half dollar" size and that either fingerpalm or Crimp works for exiting effects?

or that picking up a stack of poker chips from the top automatically places one in TC Position?

Thanks for supporting creativity.

Work on HPC into and out of EG, using more than one coin... about thirty years ago.

Showing the coins at the base of your fingers before turning your hand over, and the secret transfer into a grip... also old news. Rosenthal, Schneider, Roth...
look at Roth's multi-coin transfer into EG. You've got better? How would another coin guys work improve using what you propose?

There are tradeoffs in choosing between parallel grips like Downs and perpendicular grips like Frickell.

Starts to read like the kings shoes in that swift story...a kingdom warring over which end of the egg to tap open.

Absolutely, and we will only know after folks get a chance to explore the differences. parallel & perpendicular and where the edge sits and how to get there and back.

Don't think "better" - just "other options." If people do not wish to improve there is no need for alternatives,
and just doing things differently will not always be an improvement.

I do not feel that looking at YouTube videos can provide those options, hence written details, theory and examples.

Your egg analogy might be correct for those who know how to boil an egg. Restaurants have 63 ways of preparing eggs for breakfast. (according to senior chef for Union Railways)

People who always order scrambled from a short list of "over easy, scrambled and sunnyside" may be missing out. Some might say, "all fried, so what."

After trying some alternative methods one might still choose scrambled -- but it will be a more informed decision --
or one might give up breakfast all together.

Yes, an egg can be concealed in Crimp, but I wouldn't try a HPC.

I'm all for trying the original hpc trick, then latta's version, maybe add an extra coin... but at a minimum explain how a new version offers improvement over what's available...or the tradeoff one is making in deviating from what's available.

A number of 'toss" sleights will be explored, HPC being but one.

Several that Vinny calls Crimp Pien Chien will be renamed and clarified as to function and type of reveal. I do no think a secret Toss for a later reveal is HPC.

The biggest advantage (for me) is the ease of release of the coin, resulting in greater confidence and control of the timing.

Many people are wary of such sleights because they are conditioned by video in which such moves can sometimes be detected.
Reading the theory and details might overcome this bias with understanding that the mind can be tricked in ways that the camera cannot.

Thus, one advantage is written instructions that increases the likelihood of such sleight being used. Seeing such a move on video will make sense when combined with the instructions.

I do not like the standard uses of HPC except in rare occasions. The new approaches based in part on Crimp Techniques can fuel the creation of new, exciting effects --
or revitalization of old ones. The results will not be better HPC effects, but better ones based on a variety of Toss Sleights.

What is "available" is resistance to using such sleights. Perhaps that can be overcome.

Those who like HPC will immediately find new uses for "the concept" if not the exact same moves.

I have one such effect ready under separate cover that I can send you if you wish. It doesn't need the Crimp -- it just helps -- and was inspired by a move of Vinny's.

Over 60 years ago I developed a palm I coined the crimp palm only to find out this palm the thumb crotch was already discovered

through the years I developed many techniques using the TC which I call my crimping technique.

I found ways to get into position but they were already in books. I finally discovered a way to get into this palm with minimal finger movement.
https://youtu.be/KBRHcRywc58 the demos describes this nd I will teach this technique in my up coming books.
I have found many uses for this palm that can be used as a substitute for almost any palm. I call these my crimping techniques.
Also on this demo you will see one of the many effects I created called the squirt, and this has many uses that I teach in my book
vinny

Here's the illustration (hopefully): (You say "flesh at base of thumb", and I said "where thumb meets the rest of the hand". If you perceive a difference there then I give up)

Jim

Click here to view attached image.

I like how you keep the mistakes in your video rather than just reshoot, like dropping the coins, or missing the squirt thing three times in a row. Keeps it raw and real.It's a breath of fresh air comapred to ellusionist dross.

Jim, it's not just the palm. It's how to get into and out of the palm and how to use the cramping techniques to slightly alter literally lots of established tricks and plots from other magicians. OK, they spent years perfecting those and using what they thought was the perfect sleights. Vinny takes those and swops in the crimping techniques and basically invents a whole new trick!

As far as I understand that's the basic idea.

Thanks for the photo/sketch, Jim. It is much clearer than the earlier one I had. It does appear the same.

The "difference" is in the description and the importance of where the coin meets the flesh -- something not stressed in earlier works.

As noted, in many applications it does not matter such as a "holdout" in Frikell use.

If the coin gets into the crease where the thumb meets the hand it can hang up and not release easily.
That is the error I made from having this palm position demonstrated back in the 50's with no photo or credit.

For some performers. like yourself it seems, a photo is enough to "get it right." For others, photos are representational and not considered instructional.
Certainly, the photos in many books are less than accurate as to finger position, or object position.

Viewing a video can lead to greater error unless accompanied by clarifying comments.
Vinny's later instructional videos are because of my efforts/influenced. He assumed folks could wat ch the effects and understand the position of the coin.

The fact is that few have ever looked at this early reference and been inspired to create new effects based around it.
Vinny did this independently out of necessity and a focus on "results desired" rather than "emulation."
My desire is not "do it this way" but "enjoy the creative process."

I will change some notations in the books as to the accuracy of some early photos over others for clarity.

Thanks for the help.

Thanks for supporting why these books are necessary. If that is "what you understand" from what has been presented, then some re-read may be essential -- or wait for the books.

creativity is not a "basic idea" but a process different for "inventing." The focus is not "tricks" but "effects" with a concern over how they appear to an audience.

A palming position might be considered a trick, and the manner of getting a coin into that position a sleight. Neither are an effect.

Vinny offers some examples of how these Techniques can be used in some popular effects. No "new tricks" are invented.

This allows the performer to have an alternative way of achieving the desired result. Whether or not it is "better" is subjective for each performer.

Many magicians do seem to spend years attempting to emulate either an exact performance or a another magician's style. They then have difficulty "making it their own."
Nothing wrong with that approach as a starting place. Some performers want to be creative in their presentation or more flexible in engaging an audience.

Today's audience is different from that of decades ago as to understanding of science, deception and "traditional tricks."
Some performers may wish to "do things differently" to meet the needs of their audience -- or when doing a repeat performance.

Vinny's videos are not meant to be a professional sales demo. No one is asking you to buy anything, either physically or intellectually. They are instructional tools for those wishing to learn.

He is saying, and the books will emphasis, "If I can do this sort of innovation, so can you." "If my old fart hands can handle these moves, you can do better."
"I can still have fun with magic after all of these years." "Call me if you have a problem, I am here."

For me, I do not want to see how well you do an old, traditional effect. I want to see the new effect you created because of the inspiration.

or, see the new confidence you have in performing your old effects because you went through a creative process.

Why? because this is what happened to me because of interaction with Vinny and friends. I was about to give up coin effects because of crippled hands.

I still can't do a Crimp very well except under limited conditions, but have created dozens of new magic effects because of the inspiration and support.
Only a few use the Crimp. I can now do some old effects long abandoned because of Crimp Techniques instead of CP or earlier "copied" methods.
Most come for knowing that I can use imagination even if my hands no longer work. Others can be my hands -- so I readily share my creations

That is basic. That is living. That is magic.

Thanks for your support. Imagine what will happen when you read the books!

Sure. But taking existing plots with well honed and thought out rationale and just swopping one sleight for the thumb crotch palm isn't "creativity".



Not by anyone I know. It's a sleight.



Nope, without a way to get in or out of a sleight, there is no sleight. It's just part of a sleight.



I cannot see anyone suggesting otherwise.



That's exactly what I wrote. Good on you for getting the point.

Ahh, but new magic effects are being created ...
and inspired and refined

Such a difference. Being creative is its own reward. Someday you might understand.

even maybe after you read the books.

Meantime, wallow in just doing tricks. Sad, but it is a place to start.

Not at all. The same tricks are being done, usually in a inferior manner, just using a different sleight.

If I had invented, say, coins across, or the hanging coins, or the Slydini one coin trick, and Vinny switched out the main sleight used for a different sleight, I would not call that a new effect. I would call it exactly the same bloody effect, just using a marginally different, and usually worse, sleight to accomplish it.

And when I was asked permission to publish this minor variation, I would steadfastly refuse.



Indeed, creativity is rewarding. The talks I am in about a TV show are probably the most rewarding thing I've done.

Copying someone's published trick and changing a sleight isn't creative. Someday you might understand.

You are welcome to your opinions, of course.

I would rather accept the opinions of others over the last 60 years of performing magic.

No reason to pay attention to your opinions at all.

Glad you found something productive to do. Is talking about a TV show being creative? If you say it must be true.

I never said I created the examples that I show . it is just a different way of doing old ideas . please don t say the TC is inferior it has it's place in magic.

i have created my own effects but not in these demos.

Please don't compare me to the to the magic greats in magic I'm not,,,,,,, the TC has many advantages over the classic palm ,and thumb palm and finger palm

this is what I say because I have been using the slight over 50 years , and if your'e not willing to try using the TC then no matter what I say will go on deaf ears.

Thanks.