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S2000magician
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On Dec 6, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
Maybe home schooling for college students would solve the problem. Of course when they graduate, they'd have zero real world experience.

And probably wouldn't know anything.


Yet, according to someone in another thread, they will be able to replace experienced teachers, engineers etc.(who should retire/be retired) without missing a beat, in order to solve the horrible problem of all these unemployed, able bodied young people.

That thread was full of idiotic comments.
landmark
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If there's only one person who knows whether the remark was racist, I'd argue for it being the person who made the remark.


That assumes a remark is only racist if the person delivering it has racist intention. While intention can certainly automatically create a racist remark, it's not true that lack of intention necessarily makes it not racist.

Or, the short version: ignorance is abundant and widespread.
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
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If there's only one person who knows whether the remark was racist, I'd argue for it being the person who made the remark.


That assumes a remark is only racist if the person delivering it has racist intention. While intention can certainly automatically create a racist remark, it's not true that lack of intention necessarily makes it not racist.

Or, the short version: ignorance is abundant and widespread.


It assumes that racism isn't in the eye of a random beholder.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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On Dec 6, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
organize a Play-Dough and coloring book room...



says it all


Not sure what you mean, Magnus. The Play-Doh and coloring book room--with puppy videos!--was referred to in the article the OP linked to. It wasn't Lobo's invention. And it is indeed quite disturbing.

If I were to attend a debate--on my own volition, mind you--and find myself so disturbed that I need to go off to a "safe room" with Play-Doh and coloring books and puppy videos, then perhaps the problem belongs to me rather than those who are debating. Even if the debaters chose offensive language and provoked rape memories, then perhaps it wasn't a good idea for me as a rape victim to attend a debate about rape. But lets say that I attended the debate in good faith, and lets say that the debaters were indeed insensitive; a "safe room" has Play-Doh and coloring books and puppy videos to comfort me?

Puppy videos?

I see it as part of my job to challenge students, to push them, to yank the pacifiers out of their mouths and throw them into the middle of the pool so that they can start learning to swim by themselves. If they aren't ready for that, fine. My heart--and sympathy--goes out to them. But let them take someone else's courses, or maybe even leave college and take up a different career path.

But what do I know? Perhaps there is a special "safe room" just for those who suffer through Dr Unhinged's classes, and no one has ever told me about it.

If so, I still wouldn't change the way I teach (or debate). They would have to try to fire me. And if they did, and I had to look for a safe room, I'd rather have whiskey and a PS4 with Fallout 4 than Play-Doh.

The article is quite troubling, I think; so much so, I have difficulty believing it.
landmark
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On Dec 7, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
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If there's only one person who knows whether the remark was racist, I'd argue for it being the person who made the remark.


That assumes a remark is only racist if the person delivering it has racist intention. While intention can certainly automatically create a racist remark, it's not true that lack of intention necessarily makes it not racist.

Or, the short version: ignorance is abundant and widespread.


It assumes that racism isn't in the eye of a random beholder.


No, I'm saying that someone else--perhaps many, perhaps the large majority of those--other than the speaker may well be other than a random beholder. Your formulation does not allow for that possibility, while I maintain that that is often the most likely situation.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Dec 7, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 6, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
organize a Play-Dough and coloring book room...



says it all


Not sure what you mean, Magnus. The Play-Doh and coloring book room--with puppy videos!--was referred to in the article the OP linked to. It wasn't Lobo's invention. And it is indeed quite disturbing.

If I were to attend a debate--on my own volition, mind you--and find myself so disturbed that I need to go off to a "safe room" with Play-Doh and coloring books and puppy videos, then perhaps the problem belongs to me rather than those who are debating. Even if the debaters chose offensive language and provoked rape memories, then perhaps it wasn't a good idea for me as a rape victim to attend a debate about rape. But lets say that I attended the debate in good faith, and lets say that the debaters were indeed insensitive; a "safe room" has Play-Doh and coloring books and puppy videos to comfort me?

Puppy videos?



But what do I know? Perhaps there is a special "safe room" just for those who suffer through Dr Unhinged's classes, and no one has ever told me about it.

If so, I still wouldn't change the way I teach (or debate). They would have to try to fire me. And if they did, and I had to look for a safe room, I'd rather have whiskey and a PS4 with Fallout 4 than Play-Doh.

The article is quite troubling, I think; so much so, I have difficulty believing it.


Perhaps I misread Lobo's reference.

I, too, suspect that the article overstates or mis-states the situation. But the call for safe spaces is real and needs to be somehow negotiated.

My position is that it is far wiser to listen to the call and to take it seriously (no, that doesn't mean doing everything anyone asks; but do take it seriously). Providing a safe place is an act of decency (so far as I understand the issue). It doesn't follow that all spaces need to be identically safe.

Quote:
I see it as part of my job to challenge students, to push them, to yank the pacifiers out of their mouths and throw them into the middle of the pool so that they can start learning to swim by themselves. If they aren't ready for that, fine. My heart--and sympathy--goes out to them. But let them take someone else's courses, or maybe even leave college and take up a different career path.


For many, yanking is precisely the wisest and best path. But not everyone is ready for the same yanking at the same time. If we've learned nothing else about students in the past 50 years, we have learned that they are not all intellectually, psychologically and emotionally ready for the same things at the same time. In grades K-12 we've come to learn (sometimes begrudgingly) that our task is to bring education to the level that each child can meet. Post-secondary schools are approaching this disparity in ways different from this. This is fine; but the issue requires thoughtfulness, not condescension.

As a society, we have finally realized that money spent on wheelchair ramps, Braille textbooks and ASL interpreters for students are not frivolities but are investments in basic justice. This article (for all its dubiousness) encourages us to question the extent to which psychological and social vulnerability are also part of basic justice for students.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
stoneunhinged
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On Dec 7, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
But not everyone is ready for the same yanking at the same time.


I whole-heartedly agree with you, but I would say that going to college signifies a readiness to have the pacifier yanked out of your mouth.

There is a deeper issue here (or maybe dozens of deeper issues, now that I think of it): if a university education is simply advanced job training, then perhaps we ought to make room for absolutely everyone; but if a university education is about broadening one's mind and deepening one's understanding of the world, perhaps it is not for everyone. While I would never deny someone a university education because they have physical disabilities, I would still prefer they be "mature" enough (whatever that means) to enter that level of education.

Magnus, I don't think we disagree that there should be "safe" places for all; I think we disagree on what "safe" means for those aspiring to earn a university degree.
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
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On Dec 7, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
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If there's only one person who knows whether the remark was racist, I'd argue for it being the person who made the remark.


That assumes a remark is only racist if the person delivering it has racist intention. While intention can certainly automatically create a racist remark, it's not true that lack of intention necessarily makes it not racist.

Or, the short version: ignorance is abundant and widespread.


It assumes that racism isn't in the eye of a random beholder.


No, I'm saying that someone else--perhaps many, perhaps the large majority of those--other than the speaker may well be other than a random beholder. Your formulation does not allow for that possibility, while I maintain that that is often the most likely situation.



My remark was predicated on the hypothetical that there's only one person who knows whether the remark was racist, because I was responding to Tony's post in which he said that he was going to ask one friend of his daughter's and conclude whether or not it was a racist remark based on her response.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 7, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 7, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
But not everyone is ready for the same yanking at the same time.


I whole-heartedly agree with you, but I would say that going to college signifies a readiness to have the pacifier yanked out of your mouth.

There is a deeper issue here (or maybe dozens of deeper issues, now that I think of it): if a university education is simply advanced job training, then perhaps we ought to make room for absolutely everyone; but if a university education is about broadening one's mind and deepening one's understanding of the world, perhaps it is not for everyone. While I would never deny someone a university education because they have physical disabilities, I would still prefer they be "mature" enough (whatever that means) to enter that level of education.

Magnus, I don't think we disagree that there should be "safe" places for all; I think we disagree on what "safe" means for those aspiring to earn a university degree.


Now that smoking bans are everywhere, the analogy is sort of out the window, but to paraphrase something we used to say, college should be more than high school with ashtrays.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Well I won't torture out our little sub-thread, but suffice it to say I still disagree.

I like the ashtray remark, though. I always put it this way: In high school, the student should be more important than the subject; in college, the subject should be more important than the student.
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
Well I won't torture out our little sub-thread, but suffice it to say I still disagree.


Just to clarify, are you saying that if you ask one person (of the relevant group) if he or she is offended by a remark, then it's racist, but if not, then it isn't? That seemed to be Tony's suggestion, and that's the only thing I was disagreeing with.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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It wasn't long ago that women and many minorities were not "made of the right stuff" to undergo post-secondary education.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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On Dec 7, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
Well I won't torture out our little sub-thread, but suffice it to say I still disagree.


Just to clarify, are you saying that if you ask one person (of the relevant group) if he or she is offended by a remark, then it's racist, but if not, then it isn't? That seemed to be Tony's suggestion, and that's the only thing I was disagreeing with.

That one person may or may not be a relevant representative sample. But since that person may well be representative (to oversimplify somewhat, all things being equal, a random speaker may well represent the mean viewpoint if the standard deviation is small enough), a speaker-only perspective seems less than helpful.
LobowolfXXX
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
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On Dec 7, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Dec 7, 2015, landmark wrote:
Well I won't torture out our little sub-thread, but suffice it to say I still disagree.


Just to clarify, are you saying that if you ask one person (of the relevant group) if he or she is offended by a remark, then it's racist, but if not, then it isn't? That seemed to be Tony's suggestion, and that's the only thing I was disagreeing with.

That one person may or may not be a relevant representative sample. But since that person may well be representative (to oversimplify somewhat, all things being equal, a random speaker may well represent the mean viewpoint if the standard deviation is small enough), a speaker-only perspective seems less than helpful.



To me, a listener-only perspective seems less than helpful.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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On Dec 6, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Some people need porn and cocaine. Does that mean that they should be provided at college? Next to the coloring books?


Are you seriously comparing rape victims to porn users?


Are you seriously disrespecting the positive use of coloring books? The local library is hosting coloring times for adults.

Dragging rape into this is not gonna win any arguments. Porn and cocaine ... no comment. ... okay maybe... has anyone made a white powder party porn? PharmaPorn?

Okay back to "safe from what for those who believe what" ... as if folks have not learend that the boogey man has learned how to hide in light bulbs and when the lights go off ... especially the refrigerator. bwahahahah

Being born was tough - now I need a safe space. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
TonyB2009
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On Dec 6, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
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On Dec 6, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I've never been a rape victim. Nor have I survived war in my home. Nor have I suffered severe mental illness. I've not been a victim of racism or sexism. I'm not a sexual minority. I have not been tormented to point of suicide.

What could I know about what vulnerable people need if I don't listen to them?

Very good point.

I had a similar debate with my daughter last week. She said that a remark she had overheard on the street was racist. I felt it wasn't. We agreed to ask her best friend, who is coloured. If she found the remark would have made her uncomfortable I would say I was wrong. If she didn't find the remark uncomfortable, perhaps it wasn't racist.

Only the victim of racism can really tell. Same with the victim of sexual assault, etc.



If there's only one person who knows whether the remark was racist, I'd argue for it being the person who made the remark.

You make a very good point.

Just to clarify, if someone from a discriminated minority takes offense at a statement, then I think we have to acknowledge that it is probably offensive, even if we do not see the offense ourselves. And even if the offence was not intended. Sometimes those of us from white male privileged backgrounds can inadvertently stamp on the dreams, aspirations and dignity of those with less privilege.

Also, if someone makes a statement intending it to be offensive, then it is offensive, even if no one takes offense. So we have to consider the person making the statement and the person hearing it - and perhaps not the rest of us!

In other words I am not going to criticize safe rooms without knowing the story of those who want to avail of them.
Jonathan Townsend
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"...just to clarify, if someone from a discriminated minority takes offense at a statement, then I..."


sounds like there's a pecking order of pity.

is "discriminated minority" something like 'endangered species' plus victim status and you get a tee shirt plus perssion to shame others unless they are higher on the list of minorities and maybe you a few speaking engagements?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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Yes, there is a pecking order.

Those who haven't held to it in the past have in fact been lynched and raped.

Given that entitlement that some have had to commit such actions without penalty throughout our country's sad history, it's not such a bad idea to give voice to those whose voices have been historically silenced.
LobowolfXXX
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Everybody gets a voice. But no one person's subjective sensitivity gets a default right to claim "the" truth.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Nature does get a default right to claim "the" truth as nature it never lies. The pecking order is God, then man, then animals, then plants and then rocks due to the stages of evolution. The less civilized get enslaved by the more civilized people and not because they are black but might happen to be. Such is life.

Knowledge is essentially what raises one man above another. Knowledge is power. A god is that which has power. Guns beat bows and arrows. If you want to the truth then look to nature. If you don’t want to be a slave then you better get some knowledge. So long as there are bodies with more knowledge than others there will bodies under the lash of their masters.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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