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stoneunhinged
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Sitting here in my office, I look around and see my decorations and think about this thread.

I have: a velvet Elvis with a gold-painted frame; a portrait of Abraham Lincoln; one of those life-sized cardboard stand-up thingies of Marilyn Monroe; and a large, framed blow-up of a photo of Jackie Robinson stealing home. Maybe some of you can guess what all four have in common. Maybe not. But my students do. They guess. Sure, they're only in my office to discuss a term paper, but Elvis is looking down at them and they ask, "Why? What's up with that?"

The university is a special place. It is not the workplace. It is not a bank. It is not a park or a zoo or a factory or a kindergarten or a high school.

Two years ago, I had a class in a newly-finished building that cost the tax-payers 16.5 million Euros. My classroom was only accessible by a staircase. I found this unbelievable and offensive. For 16.5 million Euros, we ought to have classrooms that are accessible to people in wheelchairs, don't you think? So I got to my class and spent at least 20 minutes fuming and snorting about the unbelievability of spending such a large sum of money on a project that failed to consider the needs of ALL people, regardless of race or origin or ethnicity or crutches or wheelchairs.

The irony, of course, is that I could spend 20 minutes fuming and snorting and feel secure that my opinion is always protected in the name of academic freedom.

This is important to me.

In 1933, the university I work for started suspending Jewish professors. At first they were suspended "with pay". But over the course of the next year or so, the university became "jew-free". Pay attention to the year: not 1939, but 1933.

For me, freedom of speech (and the university version of it) trumps all other freedoms at university. Sure, I might offend a lot of people. Maybe I offend EVERYONE. Maybe I am an unhinged maniac. But once we start deciding what and how and when university lecturers are allowed to say and teach and debate, and once we start creating "safe rooms" for those who can't jump into the debate and speak their own mind and grasp and tangle and wrestle in the "ring" that the university represents, then the university is dead.

A good guess is that the vast majority of you have never heard of the University of Goettingen. Yet before 1933 it was up there with Harvard and Oxbridge and Paris.

Read this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_No......6ttingen

What you will see is that Goettingen was more or less destroyed as a world-class university in 1933.

Why? And what do "safe places" have to do with it?

In my rather-biased opinion, it was because Academic Freedom became a lesser value than the political correctness of the day. Yes, back then Nazism was politically correct. And tomorrow it may be Marxism or Objectivism or Rubik's Cubism. But the university needs to be--MUST BE--insulated from trends and fads of political correctness.

I suppose that this long post is scratching open the old wound of the debate between Lobo and Magnus regarding whether "political correctness" exists. I did not weigh in to that debate, largely because I found that my life here--in this office, in the English department of a used-to-be-world-class university--was too small to represent the world at large, and because I consider both Lobo and Magnus to be "internet friends" (whatever *that* might mean).

But in the most literal sense, political correctess definitely exists. It did in Germany in 1933, and it does in Beijing in 2015. Whether it exists in American universities today is up for debate, and I can make no contribution to that debate. I can only say that--for me--the freedom of university lecturers to speak their minds is holy and absolute. I don't mind "safe places"--but my classroom will NEVER be a safe place, ever, as long as I am employed by this used-to-be-world-class university. And if my students really, truly need a "safe place", then maybe--just maybe, y'all (I'm not going to speak in absolutes)--then maybe they shouldn't be at university.
tommy
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There is nothing new about the Orwellian Big Brother controlling the language with New speak to manipulate the general public in order to accomplish a political goal.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 8, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Sitting here in my office, I look around and see my decorations and think about this thread.

I have: a velvet Elvis with a gold-painted frame; a portrait of Abraham Lincoln; one of those life-sized cardboard stand-up thingies of Marilyn Monroe; and a large, framed blow-up of a photo of Jackie Robinson stealing home. Maybe some of you can guess what all four have in common. Maybe not. But my students do. They guess. Sure, they're only in my office to discuss a term paper, but Elvis is looking down at them and they ask, "Why? What's up with that?"

The university is a special place. It is not the workplace. It is not a bank. It is not a park or a zoo or a factory or a kindergarten or a high school.

Two years ago, I had a class in a newly-finished building that cost the tax-payers 16.5 million Euros. My classroom was only accessible by a staircase. I found this unbelievable and offensive. For 16.5 million Euros, we ought to have classrooms that are accessible to people in wheelchairs, don't you think? So I got to my class and spent at least 20 minutes fuming and snorting about the unbelievability of spending such a large sum of money on a project that failed to consider the needs of ALL people, regardless of race or origin or ethnicity or crutches or wheelchairs.

The irony, of course, is that I could spend 20 minutes fuming and snorting and feel secure that my opinion is always protected in the name of academic freedom.

This is important to me.

In 1933, the university I work for started suspending Jewish professors. At first they were suspended "with pay". But over the course of the next year or so, the university became "jew-free". Pay attention to the year: not 1939, but 1933.

For me, freedom of speech (and the university version of it) trumps all other freedoms at university. Sure, I might offend a lot of people. Maybe I offend EVERYONE. Maybe I am an unhinged maniac. But once we start deciding what and how and when university lecturers are allowed to say and teach and debate, and once we start creating "safe rooms" for those who can't jump into the debate and speak their own mind and grasp and tangle and wrestle in the "ring" that the university represents, then the university is dead.

A good guess is that the vast majority of you have never heard of the University of Goettingen. Yet before 1933 it was up there with Harvard and Oxbridge and Paris.

Read this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_No......6ttingen

What you will see is that Goettingen was more or less destroyed as a world-class university in 1933.

Why? And what do "safe places" have to do with it?

In my rather-biased opinion, it was because Academic Freedom became a lesser value than the political correctness of the day. Yes, back then Nazism was politically correct. And tomorrow it may be Marxism or Objectivism or Rubik's Cubism. But the university needs to be--MUST BE--insulated from trends and fads of political correctness.

I suppose that this long post is scratching open the old wound of the debate between Lobo and Magnus regarding whether "political correctness" exists. I did not weigh in to that debate, largely because I found that my life here--in this office, in the English department of a used-to-be-world-class university--was too small to represent the world at large, and because I consider both Lobo and Magnus to be "internet friends" (whatever *that* might mean).

But in the most literal sense, political correctess definitely exists. It did in Germany in 1933, and it does in Beijing in 2015. Whether it exists in American universities today is up for debate, and I can make no contribution to that debate. I can only say that--for me--the freedom of university lecturers to speak their minds is holy and absolute. I don't mind "safe places"--but my classroom will NEVER be a safe place, ever, as long as I am employed by this used-to-be-world-class university. And if my students really, truly need a "safe place", then maybe--just maybe, y'all (I'm not going to speak in absolutes)--then maybe they shouldn't be at university.


Great post, Stone.

As for PC in American universities, please let me assure you. It's not really up for debate.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
NYCTwister
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On Dec 8, 2015, tommy wrote:
If you don’t want to be a slave then you better get some knowledge. So long as there are bodies with more knowledge than others there will bodies under the lash of their masters.


That's good advice. What knowledge exactly?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
tommy
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Depends your game. One has to know a lot about ones game and that means one must do a lot of work studying and practicing it everyday. In this way one rises above others in the game who spend less time working and more time having fun. In the USA in particular a young fellow has a chance of getting out the slums and becoming independent by knowing his game through work rather than, doing nothing, knowing nothing and ending up the lowest of low. One cannot know it all but if one concentrates on what one wants to do it helps, I think. I mean do not think one can be a part-timer and hope to be successful. There are no short cuts that I know of.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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On Dec 8, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
A good guess is that the vast majority of you have never heard of the University of Goettingen. Yet before 1933 it was up there with Harvard and Oxbridge and Paris.

I, for one, have.

The brother of the best man at my wedding got his PhD in Mathematics fro. Göttingen. And, of course, Gauss taught there.
LobowolfXXX
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I've heard of Harvard. That's where DuBois got his Ph.D., in 1895.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
S2000magician
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On Dec 8, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I've heard of Harvard. That's where DuBois got his Ph.D., in 1895.

Tom Lehrer wrote their fight song:

Dannydoyle
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On Dec 7, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Everybody gets a voice. But no one person's subjective sensitivity gets a default right to claim "the" truth.



Where have you been for the past 30 plus years? Of course they do. There is an entire industry built upon it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Seems appropriate for this discussion? What say you? http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/yale-te......=BBnbfcL
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
landmark
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On Dec 7, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Everybody gets a voice. But no one person's subjective sensitivity gets a default right to claim "the" truth.

But that's your position.
landmark
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Well Jeff, there are so many things I want to respond to in your post but I'm really tired. Your post deserves a more complete reply but here's the best I can do right now.

Here's the Powerpoint version(speaking of US universities, as I don't know about Germany):

*American universities are indeed workplaces. And businesses which extract large sums of money from students. Huge endowments from rich folk often determine the make-up of economics, political science, business, psychology depts and more.

* Many (the most prestigious) thrive on weapons research, military spending, psych-ops research. My point here, is that universities are not ideologically neutral.

* The Nazi-Jew analogy strains. If anything it's quite the reverse. After hundreds of years of domination by white males, the oppressed classes in the US universities are speaking up. That is, in your analogy, the Jews are speaking up for their right to be educated without harassment.

* And again, the Nazi analogy: you've got major universities hiring war criminals like Condoleeza Rice, John Yoo, and David Petraeus to teach history and law. Perhaps it's time to give someone else a turn to teach.

* But here's the number one point with a bullet (and stars to boot) ****The cry for free speech would be heckuva lot more impressive if those who cried the loudest actually practiced it (not saying you, Jeff). But many of those same voices have no problem when Professors Norman Finkelstein or Steven Salaita were fired strictly because of their political views. It's reminiscent of all those people in France and the US who ran around proclaiming "I am Charlie Hebdo," and then promptly cheered the repressive measures put in place against all Muslims and called for increased mass surveillance. It becomes clear that free speech was never the agenda of these people. The point really was to hold on to power no matter how illegitimate it may be.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, landmark wrote:
Well Jeff, there are so many things I want to respond to in your post but I'm really tired. Your post deserves a more complete reply but here's the best I can do right now.

Here's the Powerpoint version(speaking of US universities, as I don't know about Germany):

*American universities are indeed workplaces. And businesses which extract large sums of money from students. Huge endowments from rich folk often determine the make-up of economics, political science, business, psychology depts and more.

* Many (the most prestigious) thrive on weapons research, military spending, psych-ops research. My point here, is that universities are not ideologically neutral.

* The Nazi-Jew analogy strains. If anything it's quite the reverse. After hundreds of years of domination by white males, the oppressed classes in the US universities are speaking up. That is, in your analogy, the Jews are speaking up for their right to be educated without harassment.

* And again, the Nazi analogy: you've got major universities hiring war criminals like Condoleeza Rice, John Yoo, and David Petraeus to teach history and law. Perhaps it's time to give someone else a turn to teach.

* But here's the number one point with a bullet (and stars to boot) ****The cry for free speech would be heckuva lot more impressive if those who cried the loudest actually practiced it (not saying you, Jeff). But many of those same voices have no problem when Professors Norman Finkelstein or Steven Salaita were fired strictly because of their political views. It's reminiscent of all those people in France and the US who ran around proclaiming "I am Charlie Hebdo," and then promptly cheered the repressive measures put in place against all Muslims and called for increased mass surveillance. It becomes clear that free speech was never the agenda of these people. The point really was to hold on to power no matter how illegitimate it may be.


If you think there's a shortage of liberal law professors in the USA, you haven't spent much time in law school classrooms.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Jack, all of your points are beside the point. The topic at hand is "safe spaces" at universities. Nothing you wrote addresses that topic. What I intended to say (and maybe my overly-long post failed to make it clear) is that freedom of thought--for people of every background, ethnicity, social circumstances, religious persuasion, and so on and so on--is the highest priority of the university. Period.

The Nazi analogy is NOT "strained" at all--not here, in my office, at the University of Goettingen. It might be strained to apply it to American universities, but it isn't strained here. There are ghosts in my hallway, Jack. And those ghosts aren't the ghosts of white privileged Americans.

RANT ON!

In 1933, there were two institutions in Germany that utterly failed--so utterly and completely that it is hard to comprehend that anyone might continue to have faith in those institutions. The first was the "church". (I put the word "church" in quotation marks because in Germany there are two established and official churches: Roman Catholic and Lutheran.) Today, we celebrate the one or two people associated with the church who stood up against the Nazis, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer. But the church as a whole just went along with it all, and disgraced itself eternally. The second institution was the university. One would think--one would indeed hope--that the university would be the one place where Nazi stupidity would be countered by well-educated, intelligent people. But that's not what happened. Read up on it, and then go and find a place to vomit.

The analogy works because the university (forget about the church; that's not my milieu) must be insulated from political fashion. Maybe the political fashion is morally correct. Then we might celebrate. But what do we do when the political fashion is not morally correct? How do we protect against it? I don't know, really. But I am convinced that silencing people for whatever reason--because they are nuts, or hurtful, or full of kaka, or nazis or racists or sexists or whatever--does a disservice to the search for truth. Let idiots speak. Then we can see them as the idiots they are. Let hurtful people speak, so we can see they are hurtful. Let monsters speak, so that we can stop them from being active monsters.

In 1933, the fashion was to say that Jewish professors were somehow corruptive and hurtful to the fine sensibilities of fine, Aryan students.

In 2015, the fashion is to say that [insert anyone of your choice] are somehow corruptive and hurtful to the fine sensibilities of fine, American students.

My only point (literally!) is that fashion should have nothing to do with what is taught at the university. Left or right or liberal or conservative or male or female or Christian or Muslim or rich or poor or advantaged or disadvantaged or whatever: LET EVERYONE SPEAK! The university should be the most politically unbiased place on earth. That it is not so is not news to me. That it ought to be so is something I still believe in.

Maybe no one sees the analogy with Nazism as clearly as I do, but that doesn't mean that the analogy is "strained". Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Come and speak with the ghosts in my hallway.

*RANT OFF!*
stoneunhinged
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Sorry for the double post, but I would like to make the point that I realize that people aren't trying to "silence" professors. The creation of "safe spaces", however, implies that the professors might sometimes be out of line when being provocative. Maybe. As Magnus also noted, the original article is most likely exagerrated. It seems unlikely to me that "safe spaces" are being offered in most universities for most intellectual events. And if they are, the whole cookies and puppy videos approach is probably less than common.
landmark
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, landmark wrote:
Well Jeff, there are so many things I want to respond to in your post but I'm really tired. Your post deserves a more complete reply but here's the best I can do right now.

Here's the Powerpoint version(speaking of US universities, as I don't know about Germany):

*American universities are indeed workplaces. And businesses which extract large sums of money from students. Huge endowments from rich folk often determine the make-up of economics, political science, business, psychology depts and more.

* Many (the most prestigious) thrive on weapons research, military spending, psych-ops research. My point here, is that universities are not ideologically neutral.

* The Nazi-Jew analogy strains. If anything it's quite the reverse. After hundreds of years of domination by white males, the oppressed classes in the US universities are speaking up. That is, in your analogy, the Jews are speaking up for their right to be educated without harassment.

* And again, the Nazi analogy: you've got major universities hiring war criminals like Condoleeza Rice, John Yoo, and David Petraeus to teach history and law. Perhaps it's time to give someone else a turn to teach.

* But here's the number one point with a bullet (and stars to boot) ****The cry for free speech would be heckuva lot more impressive if those who cried the loudest actually practiced it (not saying you, Jeff). But many of those same voices have no problem when Professors Norman Finkelstein or Steven Salaita were fired strictly because of their political views. It's reminiscent of all those people in France and the US who ran around proclaiming "I am Charlie Hebdo," and then promptly cheered the repressive measures put in place against all Muslims and called for increased mass surveillance. It becomes clear that free speech was never the agenda of these people. The point really was to hold on to power no matter how illegitimate it may be.


If you think there's a shortage of liberal law professors in the USA, you haven't spent much time in law school classrooms.

I didn't say that. I said what I said.
landmark
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Maybe no one sees the analogy with Nazism as clearly as I do, but that doesn't mean that the analogy is "strained". Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Come and speak with the ghosts in my hallway.

Jeff, the analogy strains because the Nazis were the dominant ideology in control, who were trying to suppress an historically oppressed group. Would you call Jews who resisted Nazi vilification "politically correct?"

In the opinion of some, people of color and women are also historically oppressed groups who are resisting the dominant (racist, sexist) ideology that controls the campus.

But given that, as I mentioned to you, I'm pretty much a free-speech absolutist. Unlike some of my friends on the left, I think hate speech laws are very misguided.

As to the safe space thing, I agree it's very coddly, but it's hard for me to get too excited about it when there are so many other much more pressing issues concerning intellectual freedom and the university that are not examined.

I think the previous comment about therapeutic spaces and intellectual spaces is a useful division. I think there are places for both on campus, and it's important that the intellectual spaces be as open to all, equally.

For example, what do the people in this thread think about the following at George Washington University:
https://theintercept.com/2015/12/09/gw-palestinian-flag/
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, landmark wrote:
Well Jeff, there are so many things I want to respond to in your post but I'm really tired. Your post deserves a more complete reply but here's the best I can do right now.

Here's the Powerpoint version(speaking of US universities, as I don't know about Germany):

*American universities are indeed workplaces. And businesses which extract large sums of money from students. Huge endowments from rich folk often determine the make-up of economics, political science, business, psychology depts and more.

* Many (the most prestigious) thrive on weapons research, military spending, psych-ops research. My point here, is that universities are not ideologically neutral.

* The Nazi-Jew analogy strains. If anything it's quite the reverse. After hundreds of years of domination by white males, the oppressed classes in the US universities are speaking up. That is, in your analogy, the Jews are speaking up for their right to be educated without harassment.

* And again, the Nazi analogy: you've got major universities hiring war criminals like Condoleeza Rice, John Yoo, and David Petraeus to teach history and law. Perhaps it's time to give someone else a turn to teach.

* But here's the number one point with a bullet (and stars to boot) ****The cry for free speech would be heckuva lot more impressive if those who cried the loudest actually practiced it (not saying you, Jeff). But many of those same voices have no problem when Professors Norman Finkelstein or Steven Salaita were fired strictly because of their political views. It's reminiscent of all those people in France and the US who ran around proclaiming "I am Charlie Hebdo," and then promptly cheered the repressive measures put in place against all Muslims and called for increased mass surveillance. It becomes clear that free speech was never the agenda of these people. The point really was to hold on to power no matter how illegitimate it may be.


If you think there's a shortage of liberal law professors in the USA, you haven't spent much time in law school classrooms.

I didn't say that. I said what I said.



I didn't say that you said it; I inferred that it's likely that you thought it. It's not an unreasonable inference from "you've got major universities hiring war criminals like Condoleeza Rice, John Yoo, and David Petraeus to teach history and law. Perhaps it's time to give someone else a turn to teach." I could confine myself strictly to what you said, if you like, but wouldn't you think I was being silly if I asked you if you believed that those were the only three people permitted to teach in the USA?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Sorry for the double post, but I would like to make the point that I realize that people aren't trying to "silence" professors. The creation of "safe spaces", however, implies that the professors might sometimes be out of line when being provocative.

You ain't seen provocative until you've been in one of my math, accounting, or financing classes.

Come back when you have some real data.

Smile
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Quote:
On Dec 9, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Maybe no one sees the analogy with Nazism as clearly as I do, but that doesn't mean that the analogy is "strained". Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. Come and speak with the ghosts in my hallway.

Jeff, the analogy strains because the Nazis were the dominant ideology in control, who were trying to suppress an historically oppressed group. Would you call Jews who resisted Nazi vilification "politically correct?"

In the opinion of some, people of color and women are also historically oppressed groups who are resisting the dominant (racist, sexist) ideology that controls the campus.

But given that, as I mentioned to you, I'm pretty much a free-speech absolutist. Unlike some of my friends on the left, I think hate speech laws are very misguided.

As to the safe space thing, I agree it's very coddly, but it's hard for me to get too excited about it when there are so many other much more pressing issues concerning intellectual freedom and the university that are not examined.

I think the previous comment about therapeutic spaces and intellectual spaces is a useful division. I think there are places for both on campus, and it's important that the intellectual spaces be as open to all, equally.

For example, what do the people in this thread think about the following at George Washington University:
https://theintercept.com/2015/12/09/gw-palestinian-flag/


Historically repressed group represent the dominant ideology on many if not most campuses. Which is fine, I suppose. Someone's got to. But when you're in power, it's kind of cheating to try to get EXTRA power because despite your powerfulness, in other places and in other times, people who looked like you or had the same sex organs or sexual tastes, didn't have power. History doesn't trump current localized reality.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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