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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » How to Stop the Trivialization of Mentalism (91 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Keith Raygor
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Rolyan, Thank you. I'd like to clarify that I am not a full-time performing mentalist. I know of only very few that fit all 3 descriptors at once. I also perform close-up magic among other hats.
DynaMix
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Hi Keith. I love your posts and even if I don't agree completely on all points I absolutely believe in the spirit and positivity of what you are saying.
Great stuff.

My point was that a uniqueness exists with us vs actors etc because what we do is secret. The information itself is part of the "power" so to speak.

When a cover band etc performs it is understood they aren't on the level of the mega rock stars.
*how* they are doing it isn't really part of the equation.

With us, the public doesn't know how we do what we do. It's vital to the perception of us being entertainers. So often, we incorrectly equate knowing how it's done with being equal to the top guys in the game. Beginners especially do this.

I would argue that one of mindpros central points is worth heeding - that too many people focus on the how - whereas the "why" is often what distinguishes Mentalism from mental magic or magic.

With the broader field of magic, the *how* is so closely guarded that gaining the knowledge is mistaken for *having the skill*. That's what I meant in terms of being a structural issue.

Trivialization of Mentalism aside, wouldn't you agree that an average person might not realize how much greater a pro is at (let's say) cutting the four aces than I would be?
I feel like the majority of specs absorb the effect, because the process of what we do is hidden.

I feel like that doesn't happen with actors or musicians etc.

I could absolutely be wrong on this, it's more of a gut feeling type of thing. I defer to those with more experience.
JanForster
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2015, DynaMix wrote:
I have to say I think part of the problem is that the distance from A to Z (beginner to pro) is much smaller for our art from than others.

Wrong - and it is this misbelief that makes too many people perform far too early... Without spending the necessary time for rehearsing, thinking, rethinking, studying, putting in consideration expected perception by the audience in contrary to factual perception (which means being able to think abstract on a high level/meta level, seeing themselves through the eyes of their audience...)turning each little stone upside down, knowing stage craft, many technical aspects of our work a. s. o. Knowing a secret is for many enough to perform which cumulates to the fact that the only difference between the performer and his audience is the fact that he knows something which his audience doesn't know yet.
And the audience feels that, getting a totally wrong impression about this "art"... Which leads to low reputation. They do not know better and seldom can compare. In music e. g. they can as they are confronted with music everywhere and all the time gaining a sort of competence.

As I studied 8 years piano and musical notes do not look like flyspots to me, I really can compare and love to compare the working attitude of musicians with he laziness of many of us. Jan
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IAIN
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I was going to stop posting on this thread, however - I felt compelled to say this...

look at how jan expresses himself and then look at how mindpro does it...same message, expressed in a completely different way and in no way does he talk 'down' to anyone, or tries to belittle anyone...

i've worked in a few different areas, design, teaching guitar, running clubs, dj'ing, and a couple more - most experts, or people who are vastly experienced AND talented - they tend to not feel the urge to mention that too often, because they can still say what they need to, in a way that is understandable to others...

jimi hendrix was once asked by a reporter "what's it like being the best guitarist in the world?" and he replied "i dunno, go ask rory gallagher..."

as I said earlier, human being first, your job second...
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DynaMix
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Quote:
On Dec 27, 2015, JanForster wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 27, 2015, DynaMix wrote:
I have to say I think part of the problem is that the distance from A to Z (beginner to pro) is much smaller for our art from than others.

Wrong - and it is this misbelief that makes too many people perform far too early... Without spending the necessary time for rehearsing, thinking, rethinking, studying, putting in consideration expected perception by the audience in contrary to factual perception

Knowing a secret is for many enough to perform which cumulates to the fact that the only difference between the performer and his audience is the fact that he knows something which his audience doesn't know yet.
And the audience feels that, getting a totally wrong impression about this "art"... Which leads to low reputation. They do not know better


Hi Jan. If you keep reading you will see this is the exact point I was making. That knowing the secret gives people the "right" to perform or consider themselves on par.

What I'm trying to figure out is WHY this happens. My theory is because of the nature of magic itself vs something like music. With magic, the HOW is secret, almost a "prize" of sorts.
MagicalEducator
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We understand how a guitar works by strumming the strings. This doesn't mean we can play it nor should we be charging money to hear us do it. The same applies to magic or mentalism. Many people perform once they know how something works. Knowing how is the most basic understanding. Some people are content at this stage and never wish to move forward. They have no idea about scripting, character, staging and so much more. This isn't exclusive to magic but also mentalism. We can all organized vide anecdotal stories on both sides. As I continue to study and grow I find myself a lifelong learner that always has something to work on.

Jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
Check out my column
"Magic is Education" @
www.VanishMagazine.com
JanForster
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True, learning and improving never should stop... If all would acknowledge that and behave according this insight our little world would be much better and we would discuss such themes far less than we do here. Instead we would talk more about the art itself and less about its state. Jan
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David Thiel
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Why do so many performers spend so much of their time obsessing about what other people are doing? What possible advantage is there to all this hand wringing?

If you're worried about trivialization, apply all this energy to making yourself into the kind of performer who can't possibly trivialize the art because they are the absolute best they can be. Throw away labels like 'full time pro' and 'hobbyist.' They are meaningless. The only thing impacting a performer is the performer's performance. That's it. Everything else is just noise.

I learn from performers who are better than me. This doesn't mean I copy them...it simply means I learn from watching them work. I also learn from crappy performers. Learning is evolving. Evolving, transforming feeling, experience and knowledge into an expression of art is what good performers do.

Mentalism and the performance of mentalism is an art. Work on making yourself unique. There's only been one Pollock. One Rembrandt. One...well you get the idea, right? But there have been a pile of imitators of both of them.

Be you and let them sweat being...well...them. What they do or don't do has nothing to do with you. It's just dust carried away by the wind.

David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.


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Harry the magic man
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Become greater than everyone else so you are not dragged down by everybody else.
Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow
Life is very long- T.S. Eliot "The Hollow Men"
CharlieThomms
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Hahaha
Thread sunopsis
Mindpro: I am a working pro operating at a higher level than most of you

Keith: So whats your name anyway?

Mindpro: ...

Others: yeah man, who are you?!

mindpro: its sad that people don't want the truth!!

Iain: we kind of do though... So who are you then?

There are ao many people who want us to believe they are great but hide in the shadows building up their little legends One guy who won't be named recently finally released a video of himself performing and his little legend just sort of evapurated.

Love to see a clip of Mindpro next.
innercirclewannabe
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Quote:
On Dec 28, 2015, CharlieThomms wrote:
Hahaha
Thread sunopsis
Mindpro: I am a working pro operating at a higher level than most of you

Keith: So whats your name anyway?

Mindpro: ...

Others: yeah man, who are you?!

mindpro: its sad that people don't want the truth!!

Iain: we kind of do though... So who are you then?

There are ao many people who want us to believe they are great but hide in the shadows building up their little legends One guy who won't be named recently finally released a video of himself performing and his little legend just sort of evapurated.

Love to see a clip of Mindpro next.


You might want to learn how to spell before you start hurling insults around. Your post does nothing to advance this subject. It is my understanding that Mindpro is indeed a professional. His ebook on writing a press release, etc is testament to that.
You might want to purchase it if/when he re-releases it. Well written, concise, and grammatically correct. You might even pick up some tips.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
JanForster
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Yes, please, do not get personal here. Although personal might be occasionally a mild description for insulting. Jan
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MagicalEducator
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There are many rooms in the house of mentalism. What makes one room better than the other? I appreciate the wisdom that others bring to this forum, purchase their materials and still disagree with some of their positions. Each of us bring our own unique performing experiences and these can be shared much more respectfully. I know that this is something that I can improve upon moving forward. It would be nice for us to acknowledge our peers in the same way we would if we were to be talking in person instead of anonymously from behind our computer screens. if I choose to make a decision about my performance of mentalism it is extremely insulting for someone to chime in and say that what I'm doing is trivial or trivializing the art form. Just because it doesn't match with your performance experience doesn't make it so. We all have come across material that we immediately know won't work for our character or performance situation. That doesn't make one person right and the other person wrong. I've had the distinct privilege of studying with some of the top names. Sometimes they will make suggestions for me but these just don't feel right or work for me. They show me the way that worked for them. I need to find what works for me as I seek my own magical vision. Their teaching is informative not prescriptive. Another important part is that it's always given with great care and respect.

Jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
Check out my column
"Magic is Education" @
www.VanishMagazine.com
IAIN
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I kinda agree, I kinda don't... right now, there is a definition of mentalism that is "classical", by that I mean a display of one "power/gift/ability" and a stage show to display and share it all...the character must be consistent and there should be theatre at play, as in drama, moments of intensity, maybe some humour, all of it is defined by the skill/power and mixed in with the performer's personality - and its those things that drive what you present, how you present it, and why you present it...and that's before you aim it at a certain audience, or try to slowly build up your own niche in the market...how far you are willing to adapt without affecting "you" negatively, is a sliding scale, maybe too commercial might bring more money, but you might feel slightly hollow because you are not expressing your own personal artistic vision enough...or it could be you can't find the tipping point (and a few other choices)...

accessibility and being relatable also come into it...

however, some people (who are successful) also show us that it doesn't have to be that way...however, what gets overlooked by some, please note SOME, and not ALL - is that they already have an audience and a market and are usually very experienced performers...

so the last derren brown stage show, if a new guy came on here and listed all that was in that show - he'd probably be told he was wrong, and has no respect for mentalism and that he was basically doing a magic show, with some "mental magic" thrown in...

others would no doubt descend upon this imaginary person because at one point with gnashing teeth and claws because they tell everyone that they will levitate someone live on stage, having previously told people what sweetie they were eating...

however, if derren came on here and told the entire thing, certain people would be rolling around on the floor and washing his feet....

there is a certain level of sycophancy here at times, and some people will never, ever say something about a "hallowed name" - because they want to be seen on par with them, or chummy.... despite all evidence to the contrary...

everyone is human, we all mess up from time to time, we all get angry over things that aren't important enough...i do it, everyone does it...

my main gripe is the way some talk down to others, and also how their view (however successful) has to be the one and only answer...when its not...because you can disprove it by looking at tv shows, stage shows and listen to regular people....

i think when bob cassidy talks about it here, its pretty clear - he has a clearly defined explanation of what classical mentalism is...if you wanna do something that doesn't follow those rules, then that's fine - but don't call it mentalism, because to him, it isn't...and his clearly defined explanation is there for all to see...its easy...

however, there are people out there, who aren't full timers, and don't want to perform stage mentalism - that do, believe it or not, know their own market and audience, and have spent ample time learning what they want to support what they want to do and how to express it the way they want to, too...

these are not amateurs in the derogatory sense...not one bit...

and on top of that, life has changed...its easy, and maybe even more appealing to some to deviate, and the wider our skillsets and interests are - the more we want to do...

would you tell Ronnie Wood that he isn't a full time professional guitarist in the stones, because he also paints as part of his living? or would you say that david bowie shouldn't have been in The Labyrinth because he's a musician and therefore shouldn't come along stealing actor's roles? grow up...come off it...

passions are passions and you are certainly allowed more than one...and some people are superb at more than one, too...

save the anger and the finger pointing for those who are stealing, ripping off, exposing... not a kid who is just testing the water...shout at people who are being arrogant for no reason, and are stating opinion as FACT when its just a choice... don't tell experienced people their job from your armchair because you're on a forum despite never saying hello to a girl or had a series of gigs... ask questions, listen and go away and think about what they've said...be polite, you've been given some free advice, at least have the decency to listen and think, never be rude...

workers - don't shout at someone for no good reason, don't sneer and treat everyone the same...check your ego, if you wanna use a forum, don't assume some throne of power as if its your right - if you're playing the pro card, great - but let us know who you are if you're gonna bring it up a lot, otherwise we won't understand your points of reference...if you wanna remain anonymous - that's fine too, but expect to be treated just like everyone else...the internet is full of liars and scammers, its nice to know who we talk to...

overall, the trivialisastion starts with the online magicshops and pro's selling their work with blatant advertising without any care of who they sell to...online magic shops blatantly show images of devices that should be secret...they do it to sell the item, and because kids demand a photo...pro's who don't vet who they sell to have zero come back when the old argument of "this book isn't for the merely curious!", its "this book is for the merely curious with the necessary money to buy it, I don't care!"...i can give examples...they are on here and elsewhere...

we want to give enough sizzle, to enable people to sniff it, salivate and then buy it...but we also don't want bad reviews, or people with zero experience reviewing it, and if we say "you don't get it", you get told you are being precious...

we need to question one another a little more, POLITELY....and we need to be open and honest with each other, not just as mentalists, but as human beings...it won't happen hahahaha....

seriously, it won't....we SHOULD...but we won't, because ego, one-upmanship and trolls get in the way...

so enjoy what you can, however you can legally and without hurting or stealing from others, avoid those that are just here for the bad stuff...
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IAIN
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I'm gonna have to go on for a little while longer..

you DO need to educate yourself, and invest the money to do so, not just on the techniques and methods - but also character building, learning how to handle and interact with people, the routine is not the beginning and end, its just the pebble you drop in the water and the waves and ripples are everything else that happens to create that authentic experience...

without the sound, the ripples, the texture and the weight of it all, it would NOT feel like a pebble being dropped into the water...

its a long slog at times, you fail more than succeed, you learn from that more than getting it right...go buy Hamlet, read it out cold, then go watch Richard Burton inhabit it...

go tune a guitar to an open E chord, play You Really Got Me by The Kinks, then watch Dave Davis play it and listen and see the differences...

read an M.R. James ghost story, then try and write one yourself in the same amount of pages...

it doesn't stop with good reactions, that's the beginning...

scripting gives you the backbone, so it doesn't feel like scripting, you learn to inhabit it...

there are so many things that go into what can make mentalism such a strong experience, and even more that will make it weak...

Howling Wolf did an album with a bunch of white hippy dudes, and you can hear him talking to the engineers about what he liked and didn't like about the take...that's the collision between the traditional and the new guys...if the new guys just did it the same way as the traditionalist, you would not have anything new, however, you don't get anything new without first exploring and understanding the traditional and classical approaches...

a very silly example is this - even now, when I make an error typing, I tend to keep my finger on the DEL button, rather than clicking back to the single error...because I was brought up with a 48k spectrum...
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charliecheckers
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Although I am not involved in mentalism, I will chime in to speak to a few aspects of the conversation because they are not specifically aimed at being a mentalist, but rather to the overall conversation:
First, with respect to the "trivialization of mentalism", I believe it is fool hearty not to consider the potential impact it may have on ones career. As pointed out earlier in the discussion, this happens in all walks of life. I am in medical school. When I get out, there will be many (and a growing number) of "mid level providers" (nurse practioners and physician assistants) doing what only doctors could do a few years ago. To not appreciate what this means to me is nothing short of ignorance. That does not mean I can change reality, but I can better plan my career in a strategic way in order to remain relevant and comand top dollar. This of course is happening in mentalism as well, as access to the market has become much easier, for many reasons. If one does not recognize and appreciate reality, they cannot adjust their longer term strategy accordingly. If you choose to live day to day, that is your prerogative, but don't belittle those who look a bit further down the road of life.
With respect to Mindpro, I have come to know and respect him via his contributions to the "Tricky Business" section of TMC. There, I believe his persona serves this community well, because he has an exceptional understanding and respect of the entertainment business. Being anonymous, in his particular case, actually brings a unique aspect to his posts that I greatly appreciate. It allows one to focus on the value of the post entirely, without concern over looking for a chink in his armor. I believe this is an aspect of TMC few appreciate, but wouldgreatly miss if it were not here. I don't believe that was Mindpro's original intent, but a fortunate by product.
If I were to pursue mentalism as a pro, I would think it very valuable to understand Mindpro's perspectives. I have encountered many personalities of those who are in the education field, and I never let any of them get in the way of me taking advantage of the value they can offer. I believe to do so is self limiting.
IAIN
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I agree with you charliecheckers...

it strikes me as sadly humorous though, that part of that knowledge is about understanding your audience and their expectations...so that would include HOW you communicate in the best possible way to get your message across, right?...

yet sometimes, mindpro demonstrates the exact opposite by delivering his knowledge in an aggressive or belittling way - you would have hoped that someone with all his experience would know how to deliver his knowledge in the best and most impactful way - without getting other people's backs up...and without thinking its always "their fault for not getting it"...

can anyone tell me WHO exactly listens and considers all points made by an angry sounding person? I am excluding married people and hostage negotiators....if a stranger starts shouting at you on a train or a library, what's the most likely result?
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Mindpro
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Wow, so I see this has now been completely derailed and is somehow now about me. Thanks innercirclewannabe, Jan, charliecheckers and the any others who've defended me, I appreciate it but don't need the defending. I can take this silliness and skewed perceptions. Those that know me know very well about who I am and my accomplishments and contributions to our art and live entertainment. Those that don't just show their lack of knowledge or level in the industry and truly don't know what they're talking about pertaining to me (not intended as an insult but rather a simple fact). Some of the things offered about me as facts or information are nowhere near any truth. Again, be careful who you listen to.

All of this nonsense and person attack on me, my level of experience and who I am is all only derailing the topic of the thread of which my posts have been addressing. Entertainment is not just my career, and those that have my materials, have heard me speak or have taken my personal coaching knows very well, it is my passion. From the local kids performers to top celebrity entertainers, my passion is the entertainment business on all levels. Both the show and the business. The big picture.

Identifying the problem is the first step to finding a solution (of the trivialization, remember the topic?). Perhaps this hits too close to home for some of you, but that's okay, I get it and keep it in the right perspective. Hate the messenger. The problem isn't creators releasing information, this has been done by the best for generations and worked out just fine for centuries. The problem today lies 100% in the magicians today (and their attitudes) in the magic community combined with the fact that anyone can now release their works in a booklet or dvd. Who's doing it? Magicians. Who's buying it? Who's exposing it? Beginner, amateur and perhaps even semi-pro magicians. Too bad if this hits too close for home but it is the truth. Remove these two elements and the problem is gone. Doesn't exist.

The reason I am here is because I was asked to be (invited) due to my unique position in the industry and my credits. My reputation is and has always been direct and call it like I see it. No sugarcoating and I call people out on their BS. Blunt, perhaps. Deal with it or don't read my posts. I would venture to say other than perhaps Cassidy, I've yet to see anyone here share more valuable, long-term useful professional insight and information for all level of entertainers that both advances their performances and income (for those that are professionals on any level, and not just mentalists)...for free! Getting hung up on the packaging and hurt tender feelings here is not the point or my concern. It is the message that you are choosing to miss. Many here hear what they want to hear and miss the point completely. Just like my views on the impact of European Mentalists and performers have had on the industry. Very few, still get my points and perceptions and have taken the time to understand it. It has now become an ongoing joke, that I gladly play along with that "I don't like European mentalists." It's hilarious to me. Is it the truth, no not at all. Those from over there that do get it have no problem and find it amusing. But those that don't and the kids that get all ruffled have accepted it to mean something I've never said. Actually far from it. The same is happening here.

My history, accomplishments and experience are outlined in my books, courses and training, which unlike much of the materials we are talking about are only available to accepted and qualified inquiries agreeing to the specific terms and conditions. It is the real-world goods that directly makes a difference if understood and applied. If you are unaware of me or who I am it is because perhaps you haven't looked into or invested in these materials. It really doesn't matter to me, I'm not trying to sell anything, but since several people have brought it up I thought I'd address it in the right perspective. Yes, I love to help those that want helping, assistance or evolving. Many are in fact magicians. I don't dislike magicians (contrary to popular misinterpreted belief here), only their current impact on mentalism.

The bottom line is this...Most entertainers have difficulty understanding the most important bigger picture. They only minimally ever think beyond themselves. Most give minimal or only secondary thought to the audience and their true realities, and even fewer to the needs, interests and necessary elements and perspectives of the talent buyers. Very few do this properly to the level required. Almost no one ever thinks about the industry and how each and every one of their own personal choices and decisions impacts the industry (the bigger picture). The vast majority of performers, beginners or otherwise, almost always, with only rare exception, only think as far as themselves. Only their skills, their material, their show, their bookings, their ego and their satisfaction. Most of the commentaries towards me in this thread also come from these personal perspectives.

Anyone performing publicly or now days on youtube have an impact on the industry.

My perspectives are much more vast than that due to my positions in the industry (I'm sure some will misinterpret that as well). Perhaps this too is where much of my directness and misunderstanding originates as on many of these levels hand-holding and worrying about others interpretations are not of any serious concern. Some will get it and keep up, others likely never will. Again, I understand that (just a reality), surely not meant to hurt or demean anyone in any way.

Participating here using a user name, (which is perfectly acceptable and in accordance with the rules and policies of the Café and my right to personal privacy) allows me to share my experience without crossing over, affecting or conflicting with my business associates, clients and followers from my other separate ventures.

There have been a handful of people that have tried to expose this before due to lack of personal respect and Café privacy and operational rules which were quickly banned from the Café (I'm sure some of you know who they are). I was told it wouldn't be tolerated.

We don't need metaphors or reference to other industries, that has nothing to do with what matters to our industry. We need to look at the bigger picture and understand that it can be stopped and turned around, once people start looking beyond themselves to the bigger picture.
MagicalEducator
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From time to time we read about minor celebrities or other "entitled" folk who always know better than anyone else. They expect to be treated royally while at the same time treating everyone else like crap. When this approach fails they often come out with the always reasonable "Don't you know who I am?" Of course the real answer is no one really cares. No one is going to listen to you if you're rude and talk down to people.

jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
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Mindpro
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These unfortunately are just your opinions andperceptions and are not all the reality. Also this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread once again.
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