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WitchesHat Regular user 155 Posts 
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Entertainment is not just my career, and those that have my materials, have heard me speak or have taken my personal coaching knows very well, it is my passion. Unlike all those other performers, professional or amateur, who obviously only do it for the steady income and secure future. Quote:
From the local kids performers to top celebrity entertainers, my passion is the entertainment business on all levels. Both the show and the business. The big picture. So you're a jack of all trades type? What about the passion? Quote:
Identifying the problem is the first step to finding a solution (of the trivialization, remember the topic?). Yes, but you don't. The original point of the post was that the idea that mentalism is being trivialized is stupid. Quote:
Perhaps this hits too close to home for some of you, but that's okay, I get it and keep it in the right perspective. Hate the messenger. The problem isn't creators releasing information, this has been done by the best for generations and worked out just fine for centuries. The problem today lies 100% in the magicians today (and their attitudes) in the magic community combined with the fact that anyone can now release their works in a booklet or dvd. Who's doing it? Magicians. Who's buying it? Who's exposing it? Beginner, amateur and perhaps even semi-pro magicians. Too bad if this hits too close for home but it is the truth. Remove these two elements and the problem is gone. Doesn't exist. To get rid of bad magic products we have to get rid of bad producers of magic products. To get rid of bad performances we have to get rid of bad performers, brilliant! Masterful in it's simplicity. This could be applied elsewhere. There's no problem with institutionalized racism in the police, we just have to get rid of racist policemen. There's no problem with the sharing of wealth in society, we just have to get rid of the greedy people. There's no problem with education in our country, we just have to get rid of bad teachers. There's no problem with healthcare in our country, we just have to get rid of the bad doctors. My God! I think you've just found the solution to all social and economic problems, can I humbly ask that you post again? Maybe next you can wipe out all disease. Quote:
The reason I am here is because I was asked to be (invited) due to my unique position in the industry and my credits. You may have been invited on this forum, but no one invited you onto this thread. No one currently reading these posts asked you to be here. You're here because you want to share an opinion, same as everyone else. Quote:
My reputation is and has always been direct and call it like I see it. No sugarcoating and I call people out on their BS. Blunt, perhaps. Deal with it or don't read my posts. I'm always happy to ignore you, but what if I (or others) read your post, disagree with it, and then want to express that opinion? Would that be allowed? By the way, just to let you know, you're not allowed to disagree with me. Deal with it or don't read my posts. Quote:
Yes, you and Cassidy are often mentioned in the same breath. WHO ARE YOU? Quote:
But listening to your opinion should be other peoples concern? Quote:
It is the message that you are choosing to miss. Many here hear what they want to hear and miss the point completely. Just like my views on the impact of European Mentalists and performers have had on the industry. Very few, still get my points and perceptions and have taken the time to understand it. It has now become an ongoing joke, that I gladly play along with that "I don't like European mentalists." It's hilarious to me. Is it the truth, no not at all. Those from over there that do get it have no problem and find it amusing. But those that don't and the kids that get all ruffled have accepted it to mean something I've never said. Actually far from it. The same is happening here. Sorry, I chose to miss that part. Quote:
My history, accomplishments and experience are outlined in my books, courses and training, which unlike much of the materials we are talking about are only available to accepted and qualified inquiries agreeing to the specific terms and conditions. In other words, your history and accomplishments are ONLY recorded in stuff you've written. That's comforting. I think you may be the first real world performer who's shy about advertising their accomplishments. Quote:
It is the real-world goods that directly makes a difference if understood and applied. If you are unaware of me or who I am it is because perhaps you haven't looked into or invested in these materials. Good for you, I always want to pay someone before I find out if their work has value. Quote:
It really doesn't matter to me, I'm not trying to sell anything, but since several people have brought it up I thought I'd address it in the right perspective. Yes, I love to help those that want helping, assistance or evolving. Many are in fact magicians. I don't dislike magicians (contrary to popular misinterpreted belief here), only their current impact on mentalism. And no one here hates you, only your impact on their tired eyes from reading all this. Quote:
The bottom line is this...Most entertainers have difficulty understanding the most important bigger picture. They only minimally ever think beyond themselves. Most give minimal or only secondary thought to the audience and their true realities, and even fewer to the needs, interests and necessary elements and perspectives of the talent buyers. Very few do this properly to the level required. Almost no one ever thinks about the industry and how each and every one of their own personal choices and decisions impacts the industry (the bigger picture). The vast majority of performers, beginners or otherwise, almost always, with only rare exception, only think as far as themselves. Only their skills, their material, their show, their bookings, their ego and their satisfaction. Most of the commentaries towards me in this thread also come from these personal perspectives. If that's the case why are you hating on the amateurs? Care to name one of these selfish pro entertainers. I know you like to call things as you see them in a blunt manner, and it's not like your profession would suffer given your anonymity. Quote:
Anyone performing publicly or now days on youtube have an impact on the industry. Well my perspective is even vaster, it's like, ten times vaster than yours. All other perspectives are dwarfed by my perspectives mighty vastness. No I won't tell you what my position is, it's too vast for you to comprehend, respect my privacy. Quote:
Perhaps this too is where much of my directness and misunderstanding originates as on many of these levels hand-holding and worrying about others interpretations are not of any serious concern. Some will get it and keep up, others likely never will. Again, I understand that (just a reality), surely not meant to hurt or demean anyone in any way. Don't worry, that's not your concern anyway. Quote:
Participating here using a user name, (which is perfectly acceptable and in accordance with the rules and policies of the Café and my right to personal privacy) allows me to share my experience without crossing over, affecting or conflicting with my business associates, clients and followers from my other separate ventures. Do you know what else is perfectly acceptable and in accordance with the rules and policies of the Café? Amateur, hobbyist and professional magicians posting in the mentalist section. Quote:
There have been a handful of people that have tried to expose this before due to lack of personal respect and Café privacy and operational rules which were quickly banned from the Café (I'm sure some of you know who they are). I was told it wouldn't be tolerated. Good, wrap it up with a threat, keep it classy. Quote:
We don't need metaphors or reference to other industries, that has nothing to do with what matters to our industry. We need to look at the bigger picture and understand that it can be stopped and turned around, once people start looking beyond themselves to the bigger picture. Your bigger picture seems to be, 'There are people performing and writing books who are bad.' Stunning insight. |
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts
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Unfortunately I'm not alone in these "perceptions". There are a handful of people on this thread who don't find your comments, tone very respectful. Rather than consider this for even a moment you life in your own little world where everything is fairies and elves and you get to eat all the cotton candy you want.
At the end of the day mentalism is an art form. You seem to be of the opinion that this art form can be practice/created in only one way and to do otherwise "trivializes" it. I wish you luck convincing people of that. jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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Rolyan Special user I'm fencing in my land; so far there are 590 Posts
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On Dec 28, 2015, Mindpro wrote: The topiic of the thread is the trivialisation of mentalism. The fact that you believe and have stated that the cause/blame is 100% the fault of magicians demonstrates clearly how everything you write is coloured by this opinion. The main problem is that you can't even recognise or accept that it is your opinion and nothing more. It's not a fact, regardless of how much you insist it is and regardless of how much you insist that if anyone disagrees then it's their fault. You're not the only person to have this over inflated ego and I've been around too long to be bothered by self proclaimed experts who dismiss all other opinions as having no worth. The only disapointment is that you probably do want to help, but you cant see that your arrogant and dismissive opinions mean those that could benefit will be put off listening. If that truly doesn't bother you, then it says a lot about why you post the way you do. |
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DynaMix Inner circle 1146 Posts
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This thread is not going in a positive direction at all.
If you are on this thread I assume you see the watering down of mentalism occuring, right? How can anyone performing magic in the modern era come to any other conclusion? If that bothers you, then all opinions should be welcome. As much as I have disagreed with any one person over the years, I never want them to stop offering their viewpoint, especially when they have industry experience. I understand the presentation of that opinion is offputting, but I still think the content is important, *** near required right now. Everytime a Martin Pullman, Bob Cassidy, or Mindpro stops posting, this place loses something special. My thinking on Mentalism is VASTLY different than it was 2 years ago. it is improved. This is PURELY because of the portion of the Café that puts mentalism on the pedestool that seems to bother so many. To the major point of this thread: I'm curious how many people here have transitioned from magic to pure mentalism. And how many people still mix the two. My thinking on mentalism NEVER progressed until I MADE THE DECISION to stop doing magic and present it "as real." For me personally, the SECOND that people started giving me credit (falsely, of course) for having a genuine SKILL, I was HOOKED. It made me ALL OF A SUDDEN super self conscious about bringing out a deck of cards, or having a prediction that was TOO perfect, or suddenly realizing my patter was TOO scripted, etc. I suddenly became obsessed with the idea of maintaining that illusion, of recieving that credit for as long as possible. But ALL in the name of entertaining and hopefully inspiring people to feel wonder. My point is this - if you have attempted to feel that, and decided its not for you - more power to you. I get that not everyone will like that. However if you've never attemped to go for "the real thing", just TRY IT. GIVE IT A SHOT. Perform a small mental set for someone who has NO IDEA who you are or what you do. don't present it as magic, don't get it 100% right off the top, struggle with your divination, actually TRY to be the real deal. I'm sure EVEN IF you decide its not for you, you will come to the same conclusion as most mentalists. That its AT LEAST worth maintaining the distinction between mentalism and magic for as long as we can. I get that its not for you, but how can you NOT want that distinction to survive? How can you NOT be concerned with it being watered down (aka trivialized)? |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Again, its not the content, its how it is delivered...ultimately, we are talking to strangers and acquaintances...
Labelling it as telling it like it is, blunt, whatever..is really just a lack of manners... And yes, I have tried the full on psychic delivery, I didn't enjoy the sensation and what came with it...so I tried something different and it feels better and more appropriate for me... This means I am not a mentalism or psychic entertainer because of the rules... I am not an idiot, nor am I trivialising anything...dont tell me otherwise thank you, I care, I study, I might even know a thing or two...i don't think I deserve to be clumsily bundled in with the entirety of magic or mentalism...and there are plenty of others who do and feel the same...
I've asked to be banned
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DynaMix Inner circle 1146 Posts
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To be clear, I was not aiming this at you or anyone specifically. I quite enjoy your contributions Iain!
I simply want people who *don't benefit* from the distinction to consider the importance of maintaining mentalism as separate from magic. It is quite obvious (to me at least) that you have made that journey many times over - this is why I listen to you on the subject with great appreciation. Same with Mindpro and others. I can put up with the rough delivery as long as its not personally attacking in nature. It just doesn't bother me...I think because I'm more interested in learning and discovery at this point of my own journey. |
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Rolyan Special user I'm fencing in my land; so far there are 590 Posts
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Dynamix - the problem is that many on here DO get the differences and distinction between magic and mentalism, and have a lot to contribute to the discussion on the trivialisations of mentalism. But Mindpro's refusal to accept any opinion other than his, which is that magicians are 100% to blame for the trivialisation of mentalism, stops any discussions or learning.
I believe there are many contributory factors to the trivialisation, and to blame it all on magicians is simply ridiculous. Mindpro's insistence that magicians are solely to blame, that no other opinions are worth holding, and that he's indifferent to how his comments are received, tells me a lot about why and how he posts the way he does. If you get a lot from him, and learn from him, then that's commendable, but many recognise his simplistic view for what it is. The fact that he is more interested in stirring the pot, than genuinely attempting to move things forward, is both sad and disapointing. |
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts
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"It ain't watcha write, it's the way atcha write it."
Jack Kerouac
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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CharlieThomms New user 43 Posts
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I think both matter? What about when things like this happen again and agani but get forgotten? Trivialisation occurs when material is recycle and sold as new.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=303 And still their legends grow |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts
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Things that can cause the trivialisation of mentalism:
big egos online magic shops exposing gimmicks via photos limited edition works but with zero vetting process youtube bedroom 'performances' (not like that, dirty minded person you) giving away methodology via online conversations - this can happen accidentally and deliberately not educating yourself with the classics not understanding the classical mentalism approach thinking that a clever method is the only thing needed that scripting doesn't help you in any way shape or form not having a clearly defined skillset or ability/gift not having an act/set/routine that clearly backs that up and a whole load of other things... they all go together to make up your specific blueprint... the reason why I personally believe that they can all add to the idea that mentalism is being treated in a trivial manner, is that some people, because its an accessible interest these days, as in - anyone with google and a debit card or paypal can buy so many things these days, that they can literally consume it...and what happens when you consume something? probably burp, then pass it out a couple of hours later, and then you wanna consume more... that is not solely down to magicians, its some people who are interested in mentalism too... because they are not devoted to it, or care about it - it is just a hobby and they have no interest in going any further with it - so they are not going to spend their time learning and thinking deeper about it...that is not entirely their fault... its kinda their responsibility - but hey, there's lots of irresponsible people out there...no one on here can individually or collectively address that and fix it... its probably too late, and things will continue, THAT is why having a goal, some kind of character driven artistic vision/goal is the most important thing in my eyes...be and say something different from all the rest... so if we are looking to blame someone, something, some group... its a pick and mix of a variety of things... i mean, you can type in "mentalism" into google right now, and you'll get a big definition of it, links to a wiki page, a couple of exposure sites, some big online magic shops, some videos, people looking for free stuff, pdfs, all sorts of things...you'll see all sorts of things... so, where do we go and what do we do? if we go to a forum and ask for help, do we deserve a smack for being wrong? what happens when we smack people online? it tends to escalate and people smack back...do we think that it works? maybe sometimes it does - maybe the person disappears? doesn't mean they suddenly see the light though does it... and I'm not saying be extra chummy and repeat yourself over and over again...want to contribute in a positive way? set up a single blog page, work collectively to expand upon the sticky we have here, maybe put together a free PDF that links to it -the PDF doesn't have to contain much, just enough to explain what classical mentalism is and what it isn't, and in a neutral or engaging tone...do something collectively and once and once only...you can only contribute and try...that's all... maybe the full timers could do this and the rest of us support it by farming it out? just an idea...
I've asked to be banned
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CharlieThomms New user 43 Posts
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On Dec 30, 2015, Mindpro wrote: ...he said on another thread with a strait face... |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10606 Posts
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What seems to be the problem CharlieThomms? Every post I've made is about the topic of addressing and making suggestions to identify and correct this issue. Seems like you too are simply flaming the fires, touting and also starting to deliberately try to sir things up based on your last several posts. Completely uncalled for and unnecessary. And yes, both here and there with a completely straight face.
Now dragging one thread into another for no other purpose? The trivialization continues... |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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In an attempt for a more rational approach, It is easy to agree that bad magicians and bad mentalists hurt all serious performers of the mystic arts.
But "trivialize" does not sit well considering the earlier history of those successfully combining both conjuring and mental-based feats. Long ago I posted a reference to Ormand McGill and received no comments. He believed that ALL performers should engage in both. we can look to a performer like Ormand McGill to see how conjuring and “psychic magic” can be combined. His book on Psychic Magic is based on articles from 1937 and republished many times since – even 2008. He combined conjury with psychic magic in his shows with great success and encouraged all magicians to do likewise. In his post WWII USO performances, however, on the advice of his booking agent (Arnold Furst) he presented only conjury before the intermission and “mentalism” after words, believing that the former prepared the audience of the later mental demonstrations. He noted, “there is wish-fulfillment here; an underlying hope that somewhere deep within the mind there may be some mysterious powers that will in some measurable help in the mastery of countless problems that constantly perplex in the hazardous art of living.” It is easy today to say what he did was “mental magic” rather than “pure mentalism,” but demonstrated that a performer can satisfy both those in an audience seeking to be deceived and those aspiring to paranormal abilities. His teaching of this material was based on a belief that a “magician” is the best person to support the paranormal abilities of humans in contrast, saying, “I have demonstrated how physical laws can apparently be defied for your amusement. Now we shift to demonstrations that the human mind is capable of many things generally considered impossible.” Thus, under the guise of “entertainment” people can be encouraged to experiment along the lines of personal genuine psychic powers. Taking this approach there is not ethical conflict. He notes that Psychic Magic is “Magic portraying Magic.” and “It is in the simulation of those supernatural forces that Psychic Magic has its origin, and the more perfect the simulation, the more perfect the presentation.” “So, we will pursue in our studies as a matter of the production of genuine psychic occurence together with the simulated psychic occurence – for it is in the skillful blending of the pseudo with the authentic, that is found the real basis for Psychic Magic’s rightful place in the art of entertainment.” ......... So, for a magician to do Mentalism may be unwise from a "confuse the audience" today there is no "trivialization" going on. Will most performers today work at doing both well and faithfully? I doubt it -- but that is a problem of a different sort. What I do know is that I can do mentalism effects that most performers today cannot or will not do. I can also do conjuring effects that most will not or cannot do. Why? Because I wasn't mentored, taught or conditioned to think it is an "either/or" factor. I also know that these negative post and posturing do not encourage people like me to share what I know. Why not work at encouraging folks to be better Mentalist or better Magician rather than looking for something to blame?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Julie Inner circle 3943 Posts
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On Dec 30, 2015, funsway wrote: Very well said. Perhaps this is a maturity issue (not chronologically) as opposed to a contrite posturing, philosophical discussion... Julie |
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Stunninger Inner circle 2827 Posts
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On Dec 30, 2015, Julie wrote: Bingo. |
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts
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On Dec 30, 2015, funsway wrote: There's a lot to think about there. I appreciate the connection to history and that it aims at the foundations of presentation. Thank you for sharing it. |
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DynaMix Inner circle 1146 Posts
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Interestingly I haven't seen a lot about the opposite situation - doing "pure" Mentalism and then segueing into some mental magic.
That for some reason has been working for me lately a little better than the opposite... If I do any sleight of hand or card material at all. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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This information has also made me question the wisdom of combining effects like metal bending or penetration with mind reading or farsight.
Say that we accept that an audience coming to see a Mentalist holds beliefs that some paranormal abilities exist and that these beliefs/bias can be verified or enhanced by demonstration. Say that we agree that an audience coming to see a conjuror type magician expects to be entertained by guile, trickery, artifice, etc. as demonstrations of what magic would look like if it existed. The expectations of each audience is different. Without suitable framing or sequencing the magician risks confusing their audience by failing to meet their expectations. But, properly presented a mental baed effect can enhance the entertainment, and condition the audience as to what "impossible" means. When a Mentalist performs a demonstrations that "stretched believing too far" they also risk confusing or even betraying their audience. If trickery enters the picture the trust is shattered. A Mentalist must be better practiced in their trickery since any detection can be fatal. Why take the risk with something that some may consider trickery? Thus, IMHO, a magician can perform mental based impossibilities as "moving beyond" trickery, while a Mentalist cannot perform conjuring without "moving back" from audience expectations. A problem might arise in an audience with unknown expectations, i.e. it is not known if the expect a pretending of impossible or a validation of impossible -- or care either way. I feel that any demonstration of "mental based" impossible conquering will never be received as a Mentalist desires. It is a poor choice. I have no problem with a limited number of performers desiring to restrict "being a Mentalist" to a pure and distinct art form, but that is based on having an audience with the right expectations and bias. But, they cannot restrict "mentalism" or "mental magic" for other performers or audiences in general. If I go to see a proclaimed Mentalist I do not want to see conjuring or sloppy trickery or have my intelligence insulted. If I go to see a proclaimed Magician I do not want to see any "Now I am a Mentalist" effects any more than I want to see juggling or sand painting even though they are magical for some. If I go to a variety show for family entertainment I would enjoy a mix of performances, e.g. conjuring, mentalism, juggling and sand painting -- but not by the same person. Thus, if there is any trivialization of the mystic arts it comes from not relating to or appreciating ones audience expectations. The problem today is that we cannot well judge the expectations of a general audience with lazy shotgun approach to entertainment adopted by many. The attitude of any performer of, "I'll try this because it seems to work for someone else" must lead to failure in the long run. Unfortunately, audiences seem to thrive on failure and confusion. Now we learn that more and more people crying "entertain me" are chemically addicted to being in entertainment mode, and what we do as performers may be secondary to the excitement and thrill self-induced. As Paul Valary quipped a century ago, "The trouble with today is that the future isn't what it used to be." Me -- I am just going to make sure that what any audience expects and what I provide are aligned. Anything else would be trivial.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4192 Posts
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On Dec 31, 2015, DynaMix wrote: Derren Brown, sort of... @ funsway: You are right, it is a question of expectation, self positioning and marketing. I wish more people would think about it... I have the pleasure to work in a program with a magician next week ... he told me already (not that I asked him, I do not care...) that he starts with the "Vanishing Coke Bottle" and then moves into a mental trick routine around a "Mental Board"... (his words)... We see, weak thinking, if at all, is everywhere.  Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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The Urban Entity New user Itta Bena, MS 100 Posts
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I know I'm quite late to the party but I don't think people who perform bad mentalism trivialize it. Even if its some sort of reveal by being a bad performer. I'll go as far as to say even the reveals don't hurt mentalism. Sure, some people will pick up on it. But those who want to know the methods, probably just want to be "in the know".
I've seen this happen countless of times, many people who find out how the trick is done, so to speak, forgets. Why? They don't practice. They have a million and 1 things in life to do than to practice or even remember a trick. They may recall it. But they may remember. If they do, a good performer is good enough to slay them. I think trivialization of mentalism actually happens.....NEVER! If you know what you are doing, you are going to rise to the top. If you don't know what you are doing, no one is going to be interested in you. People will subconsciously weed out the bad performers themselves, because they are not interested in their work. Years ago, Valentino went and broke the proverbial code. People watched it. They still do today. Has that actually stop good performers from working and making a living? No. I would say that Valentino conned much of the public when he did his "reveals". Some of the stuff were real methods, most of it was illogical. People want to be entertained. They want to be fooled. If anything, exposure showed me that the only ones who truly care about exposure are magicians. And the general public could care less about who exposed the trick. Magic and Mentalism are a discipline. If you love it, you will keep at it. If you are just curious, eventually you will give up. The general public wants to be fooled and not be performers. Like pro wrestling, we know of it today as "sports entertainment". There has been so much "exposure on techniques", companies like the WWE continue to thrive. Sure, fans most of the time have a working knowledge of whats going on technique wise, in ring psychology wise, and even the storylines are very predictable, yet its the showmanship that sells. Someone like Peter Turner, floors with his skills. I have almost all of his material. Have a working knowledge of it, and I'm willing to say that I can't pull it off like him. I have to "be my own man" and use my material that works for me. I hate to keep on rambling but, I just think we, as performers and creators, "overthink".
WATCH AWESOME HYPNOSIS VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/user/taylormade85/example?sub_confirmation=1
"Pushing The Boundaries of What is Possible With Hypnosis" |
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Posted: Dec 29, 2015 05:44 am 
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