The monofilament knot came loose and I was left with a loop in my hand at the climax of the effect and a dove still hidden with 30 minutes remaining. I chose to get it out manually as discreetly as I could. I suspect that I won't get booked again by this company.

I use Tony Clarks method of double knotting and securing with clear nail polish. Don't know what happened or how to prevent it from happening again.

Search the Internet on how to tie a surgeon's knot.

I would never depend on just a double knot when it comes to monofilament nylon line. There is no rule to the number of knots. I found that you should pull tight each knot. Monofilament comes in different strengths, so I doubt you would break the line. Usually, the most common strength is 10 lb. for dove work. Also, there are instant glues that do not produce heat while drying. Read the labels and try one of those.

Thanks, Bill. I'll do that right away. I have a show tonight and don't want the same thing to happen again.

I had a couple different ways to hook up the loops. Some were simply a loop of monofilament attached directly to the harness. Others were a loop made from very fine music wire (great way to re-purpose old guitar strings! ). These were attached using a length of straight monofilament that had to be tied to both the loop and the anchor point on the harness.

The reason I mention this is because with one method, both ends of the monofilament are together, on the other they are not. When they are together, I usually fuse them quickly in the flame of a lighter. It is necessary to pinch off the actual knot first, so it does not get burned in the process. This is MUCH more secure than any glue you can use. They simply cannot slip and untie.

Then, take the knotted end and push it through the anchor point on the harness.

Split apart the two strands of the loop, push the end of the loop opposite the knot through that opening, and pull to tighten that knot. This is the closest example I could find. Just imagine the rubber band being manipulated is the monofilament loop, and the other is the anchor point on the harness.



If it is a line that must be tied at both ends, each to a separate point, I used a knot common to fishermen, as shown here. You do this to both ends, one to the loop, the other to the harness. This is a common style if you need a longer line for any reason, when a huge loop would be impractical.



Now, for what it's worth, I used the female half of a dressmaker's hook and loop sewed directly to the harness, as the anchor point for tying (I made almost all my own harnesses once I understood how they worked.) Several examples of those hooks here...

Wow, thanks Michael. Very helpful!

Thanks Michael Baker, I can see by locking the line, will keep it from coming apart.

Just to make it clear, I have never needed to use any glue on my knots. The information was just for Five, being he mentioned glue. Glue is so permanent and could get on the bag by accident and hurt the fabric.

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Another tip I used for my monofilament line was to make it in nice loop. I have seen many dove workers have the line curling out of their garments. The solution for that is to place the line coming from the dove bag, on a kitchen towel (one thickness), on the ironing board. Then place The other half over the loop of line, forming the loop in the form you wish it to be. Now, with a hand iron, set to cotton, gently run the iron over the towel twice. Ta da! Perfectly formed loop.

Another tip I have found very useful, is to use 3/4" wide 3M plastic tape, cut2, 1/4" wide piece off for each line strand. Place for each strand of the loop coming out, on your inside lapel, over the lines. Now lift straight up while holding the bottom half of the tape, pulling the line from the tape. Do this 3 times, by sliding the line back in place. Now the line will come free without taking the tape with it. I have the same tape on my jacket for months. Leaves no residue, and you will know exactly where the line is without looking. Of course this takes practice. Never look for the loop, use your peripheral vision, as double check if you wish.

Yeah Bill! I guess we've all seen too many "dove acts" that do the "vanishing loops" bit!

I stopped using monofilament line years ago and switched to wire loops. No "curling" no "broken knots". When I did use line, I bought some small metal line connector from the fishing goods store. These are tiny black tubes that fishermen use to join lines. Just feed the loop through the tube and crimp tightly with a pair of pliers. Your know will never come untied or break. They come in a variety of lengths and diameters but you only need one long enough to cover the knot.

I would have used the music wire suggested by James Dimmare on a video I have, but, I could never find coiled music wire. He just said they could be found in hardware stores, but I never did. He used gun black to darken the wire. The hardware store does carry straight music wire, but I thought it was to hard to bend and keep in a curve. Then he never gave the wire number to use for best results.

I even contacted Norm Nielsen, when I purchased his dove bags, and asked him, but he would not respond. So the heck with it, I just used 10 pound clear nylon fishing line, and it worked for me, or I made it work for me.

I think it was Fantasio that suggested the 10 lb. line in the Encyclopedia of Dove Magic by Supreme Magic.

General Grant even sold a line holder to keep the nylon in the correct shape and bend over, but I found the warm iron to do a more perfect job, and I never had to re-iron the line again.

General Grants dove looper works great on monofilament. You just have to leave it out in the sun for awhile. Same as an iron actually. If you use wire, it doesn't have to be music wire. Actually I bought my wire in a crafts store. It comes is a varity of sizes but the best size is 28 guage and it comes in black. You can also use floral wire but that only comes in green. If you use that, just hold the wire over a flame and it will instantly turn black. Wipe it down and you're all set.

Oh, and while 10lb line may work, it is over kill. You only need 4 lb test. Remember, you aren't pulling the dove out but rather sliding it out in a steady glide.

Dave, I did find the black gauge wire in a hardware store, no longer in business, but when I was testing it, I found it did not last long for moves like the Neil Foster move. Not because it did not conform to the moves, but because it was like most wire, bending to much it would get weak and break. So as not to have to worry about replacing it, I just went with the nylon line.

I was the only person doing doves in the Indiana area at the time, and had to rely on all the dove books I purchased for information. I spent a ton of money just trying to find the right or real dove production methods. Thanks to the late great Johnny Brown of Texas, his books finally gave me the real scoop on dove pockets. General Grant on the line being secured.

I seen and read about using tape, but when I seen a famous magician perform his dove and had all that invisible tape sticking up above his silks, I could see that was not the solution. So I used what I know, and tested plastic 3M tape, and it was the answer. Kind of because of Fantasio, he made me buy the tape for his Color Changing Canes. It was possible to reuse the tape for multiple shows, so if it worked on the canes, why not try it on the jacket.

I will never forget how many times an audience member came up after the show and said, "I figured out how your tricks are done, but tell me how you produced those doves." Well, I never told - until now.

Ooooo, lots of action on this thread! Good ideas here. I have used non-spring wire before, wire that if you bend it it stays bent. I still have a ton left on the spool. I used to use it for tying feather bouquets before changing methods for that. The advantage of this kind of wire is that you can form the loop any way you want it. One idea in particular is folding the loop back over the lapel. This places it against a black background, rather than against a white shirt. I think I found the spool at a milliner about 40 years ago. Good luck finding a milliner these days, though! Ha!

The main advantage of music wire is that the loop cannot get accidentally crushed if you bump it wrong. They always stay open.

I have used tape to hold loops in place, but I have also used small bobby pins sewn inside the edge of the jacket. You just have to know whether to position the opening up, down, or sideways, and this depends on the particular steal. Not always were my loops outside and potentially visible. But, they were where I could get them when needed and the action was designed so that I was not having "reach inside my jacket". There are lots of little tricks that dove workers develop and may never tip.

I always changed up the productions and the method of steal because I felt that repetitive actions that always resulted in a dove production would eventually flag itself, and even if the steals are perfect, there is a "tell", and you lose the surprise. I studied steals from the same side, from opposite sides, direct steals done with one hand, and stealing into the opposite hand while the first provides the motive power. Kind of hard to describe all that without actually showing the actions for each type.

I also found that 6-8 lb. test is plenty when using monofilament. Any pulling hard enough to break it would likely kill the bird first.

All in all, I did learn the basics from books (no videos back then), but I really experimented a lot to come up with unique ideas. I worked a kids TV show every week for 2 1/2 years, and naturally wanted to change up the magic. Necessity being the mother of invention, I did. Over the years, I did a LOT of dove magic, and a LOT of different effects. I gave away all my birds right after my son was born in 1992, because he was diagnosed with asthma. It was fun while it lasted, but the decision was a no-brainer.

The 28 gauge wire I mentioned is readily available in most craft stores like Michaels and JoAnns. You can also buy it from Andy Amyx. The wire is thin enough to bend around the lapel as Michael mentioned or stand straight out from the under the jacket. My shirt is black so the wire never shows. I also use loop holders designed by the late Peter White made especially for wire loops. Dan Sperry also makes a similar holder that can be used for both monofilament and wire.

We're getting a little off topic by the OP. The concern was tying a knot that would not come undone and we're drifting into types of loops and holders.

Magicians helping magicians.

I never used the same method on my productions, Neil Foster, probably the best in my opinion. Then the great Johnny Thompson, Slydini, Chen Kai from South America, and Johnny Brown. I worked out producing 11 birds while wearing a dinner jacket. Then the Joseph Gabriel dove split changed everything.

That's the fun of dove magic. Everyone does what works for them. There is no right or wrong way in most cases.

Dan Sperry makes a gimmick to hold the loop in place. Fishline to metal loop. His gimmick is not a magnet.

Ice McDonald has a gimmick he calls "loop connect". It's a commercial product. His gimmick uses a thicker gauge fishing line and loop.

Both are Non tape, non magnet and will hold your loop in place. Buy both and see which one you prefer.

A common mistake some dove workers will make is using the wrong glue on their loops. Some glue will slowly burn the monofilament.

Instead of using fishing line loops and wire loops, I usually use little plastic rings that get hidden just slightly behind the jacket, held onto it with a small button or fastener, the kind sold at fabric stores. Maybe it's just me, but I find this to be much easier than grabbing fishing line or wire loops since a sold plastic ring is much easier to feel. I do connect the ring to the harness with fishing line. To keep a knot from coming loose, I sometimes use a little glue from a low temperature hot glue gun, although this probably wouldn't work for a fishing line loop.

I find what you describe to not appear to be as deceptive as a loop, because, I can't see that you are showing all your fingers separated and spread apart, if you have to hold a button. It may be easier for you, but I am sure the audience can see you are taking ahold of something, and holding something. The Neil Foster steal is the best in my opinion, and described in Chavez Encyclopedia of Dove Magic or comes with the bag from Abbott's Magic. Shimada has the best one hand opening for the bag; I have found. The Johnny Thompson E-Z Way Out dove bag uses the direct steal is also good for an 18" silk production.

If it's for an invisible dove harness, it probably wouldn't be as deceptive, but currently I mostly just use them for stealing doves with handkerchiefs that I'm holding. I reach the ring with my thumb or middle finger on the same hand that's holding the handkerchief.